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I sympathize with the general sentiment but did not like the piece itself. I am open to considering the possibility that I am in fact part of the problem. Nonet

by doktrin 12y ago

I sympathize with the general sentiment but did not like the piece itself. I am open to considering the possibility that I am in fact part of the problem. Nonetheless, I will share my thoughts. > But because of the urgent need for new blood / ideas in the tech world, our lack of ability to reward new developers is a particularly profound example of shooting oneself in the foot. Slow down. You're fresh out of coding bootcamp, so it seems a bit presumptuous to be pontificating about "our" problem as if you don't have a vested interest in being "rewarded". > Or, put another way, what if a friend had spent a month perfecting his roast veal, cooked you some, and was eager for your opinion. Do you really want your first reaction, before tasting it, to be, “I hope the wine in the veal sauce is authentic French Merlot!” This is a deeply flawed analogy. Do you expect potential colleagues and employers to treat you as a friend would? Do you think a professional chef would be uncritical of this hypothetical veal if someone came in off the street with it looking for a job? > Seriously, is “Is it responsive?” really the first words you want to come out of your mouth, before you’ve even seen the product? In my opinion this sounds like a contrived straw man. At a minimum, it's not generally representative. > In the last two months, I built an app with a friend. It’s not rocket science. It’s not perfect. But it was a lot of work, and it’s beautiful, and it’s mine, and I am so proud of it. > [from the landing page] : "Free, Easy, Secure" I could not help but be taken aback. Coming from a group of novice developers, declaring an app "secure" is a bold claim.

sosuke 12y ago
I had a similar feeling. You start out doing grunt work when you're new in a career, it isn't glamorous and you have to prove yourself through actions. Coworkers are not friends first, they are coworkers. I'm not sure, but I think this post has a feeling of entitlement.
- amirmc 12y ago
  I think this thread demonstrates (at least part of) the issue. If you've been hired then you're already past the first hurdle. The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. There are may ways to give encouraging feedback (I'm sure there are plenty of books on it), so it's more of an attitude thing. The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to.
  - doktrin 12y ago
    > The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. > There are may ways to give encouraging feedback You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. > The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to. That actually wasn't lost on me. TV shows aggrandize it, but the culinary world is not a polite one. If anything, this should help serve as a point of reference. The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle.
    - amirmc 12y ago
      > You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you). > The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle. Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect. As the OP tries to point out.
      - doktrin 12y ago
        > My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you). You're jumping to the unreasonable conclusion that the only possible interpretation of "paying ones dues" is to be "shit on". That is, quite correctly, the view held by certain occupations (e.g. the military), but it is not the only way to parse the term. A more charitable way of interpreting it would be as shorthand for "demonstrating commitment and competence". This is a fairly ubiquitous concept across virtually all professions. > Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect. Did you expect me to enumerate every industry that I consider less forgiving and more emotionally demanding than tech? Fine. academia finance military & law enforcement law medicine management consulting Those are just the industries I could name off the top of my head and which I have enough familiarity with to pass judgment.
BhavdeepSethi 12y ago
This. Exactly this. I would hate to work with such people. Taken aback? Bold claim? As a novice developer if someone is declaring their app to be "secure" then there is nothing wrong with it. There are two possible scenarios. 1. They've actually made the app really secure. -> Appreciate it. 2. They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky. You're not expected to be friendly with anyone. At the same time, there is no need to be condescending. You, as a senior dev, are expected to give positive feedback and mentor the group of new developers.
- doktrin 12y ago
  > They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky. You're injecting my comment into a manufactured scenario. I'm not performing a code review, vulnerability assessment or pen test nor am I the OP's supervisor. I'm sharing my reaction to a web product as a potential consumer. An invalid claim of security causes me to lose trust in the product and its creators. It's as simple as that.

by doktrin 12y ago

sosuke 12y ago

I had a similar feeling. You start out doing grunt work when you're new in a career, it isn't glamorous and you have to prove yourself through actions. Coworkers are not friends first, they are coworkers. I'm not sure, but I think this post has a feeling of entitlement.

amirmc 12y ago
I think this thread demonstrates (at least part of) the issue. If you've been hired then you're already past the first hurdle. The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. There are may ways to give encouraging feedback (I'm sure there are plenty of books on it), so it's more of an attitude thing. The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to.
- doktrin 12y ago
  > The attitude that you somehow have to 'pay your dues' is part of the overall problem and is akin in spirit to 'hazing'. > There are may ways to give encouraging feedback You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. > The comparison with the professional chef is amusing considering the TV chef shows I've seen. They're regularly abusive, cantankerous and create terrible environments to work in (imho). Not something that the developer community should aspire to. That actually wasn't lost on me. TV shows aggrandize it, but the culinary world is not a polite one. If anything, this should help serve as a point of reference. The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle.
  - amirmc 12y ago
    > You seem to be implying that these two concepts are mutually exclusive. They're in fact completely independent of one another. My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you). > The "tech industry" is not harsh. It is in fact exceedingly gentle. Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect. As the OP tries to point out.
    - doktrin 12y ago
      > My point here (perhaps poorly made) is that people behave as though they're mutually exclusive. e.g. that you're not really paying your dues unless people are shitting on your work (and when you've progressed, you'll shit on those below you). You're jumping to the unreasonable conclusion that the only possible interpretation of "paying ones dues" is to be "shit on". That is, quite correctly, the view held by certain occupations (e.g. the military), but it is not the only way to parse the term. A more charitable way of interpreting it would be as shorthand for "demonstrating commitment and competence". This is a fairly ubiquitous concept across virtually all professions. > Picking an extreme example and then saying tech is gentle by comparison is somewhat ridiculous. The tech industry is certainly more relaxed in a number of ways (e.g dress code) but that doesn't mean it's 'gentle' in every respect. Did you expect me to enumerate every industry that I consider less forgiving and more emotionally demanding than tech? Fine. academia finance military & law enforcement law medicine management consulting Those are just the industries I could name off the top of my head and which I have enough familiarity with to pass judgment.

BhavdeepSethi 12y ago

This. Exactly this. I would hate to work with such people. Taken aback? Bold claim? As a novice developer if someone is declaring their app to be "secure" then there is nothing wrong with it. There are two possible scenarios. 1. They've actually made the app really secure. -> Appreciate it. 2. They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky. You're not expected to be friendly with anyone. At the same time, there is no need to be condescending. You, as a senior dev, are expected to give positive feedback and mentor the group of new developers.

doktrin 12y ago
> They've probably left a lot of loop holes. They've made it "secure" based on their understanding of security. -> Appreciate it. The feedback be given in a much more positive way by acknowledging their existing work and then giving them few pointers of making the app more secure. If you were taken aback then you're just being cocky. You're injecting my comment into a manufactured scenario. I'm not performing a code review, vulnerability assessment or pen test nor am I the OP's supervisor. I'm sharing my reaction to a web product as a potential consumer. An invalid claim of security causes me to lose trust in the product and its creators. It's as simple as that.