4 ms·

Why are you so agressive in your argumentation that the conflict is so black and white? I am not saying it is israels fault. I am saying that many people of mi

by kossTKR 12y ago

Why are you so agressive in your argumentation that the conflict is so black and white? I am not saying it is israels fault. I am saying that many people of middle eastern origin are very against the way israel conducts itself. And that this factor probably has more weight when people of middle eastern descend decides to hate jews. This stands weather or not you agree with that opinion. I am not excusing hatred towards jews. It's incredible that you need to inform people on this. Trying to find models of explanation is not the same excusing any parts of that model. I am also stating that it is both intellectually dishonest, and dangerous to ascribe complex cultural mechanisms such as animosity towards israel and jews to single factors like "It's just because they hate jews", and not complex web of historical and cultural factors. Also you sound extremely bigoted when you say "they just attacked israel because they hate jews so much". Come on. Also you highlight the Yom Kippur war. The six-day war was 6 years prior, and Israel attacked first. You can always cherry pick and make it look like someone started. Lastly, i have a few israeli friends. They all loathe their own foreign policy as do large parts of the israeli population.

ars 12y ago
You made a claim: > Most muslim "anti-semitism" in the west today stems from a frustration with israels war policy. Not an inherent racial doctrine. The claim is false. Why does it matter that the claim is false? Because it goes toward solutions. If your claim was true then solving the problems with Palestinians would solve the hatred. But since your claim is false this will not happen. There is in fact nothing Israel can do to stop the hate except not exist. (The subordinate thing I mentioned earlier.) They hate Jews not for their religion (I should have clarified that), but for existing as a strong nation. But their hate is directed toward Jews, not just toward Israel. > Also you sound extremely bigoted when you say "they just attacked israel because they hate jews so much". Come on. It's also true. Yes, they wanted territory and such, but why did the population support the attack? > The six-day war was 6 years prior, and Israel attacked first You are cherry picking yourself. Egypt closed the straights first, and started massing for war. Historians agree that Egypt was the belligerent here. > Lastly, i have a few israeli friends. They all loathe their own foreign policy as do large parts of the israeli population. Toward Egypt? No they do not. The Israeli population wants peace, that is why they are upset. But they do not loathe the policies, they loath that nothing has been solved. Especially after the utter failure that was the withdrawal from Gaza Israelis no longer really believe peace is possible. There is nothing Israel can do to accomplish it, except not exist.
- kossTKR 12y ago
  Ok so we actually agree in that much of the animosity towards jews stems, not from an inherent theological constant in islam but rather the israeli conflict situation and other regional factors. This was what i was trying to communicate, because the discussion started with a ridiculous comparison to nazi ideology. It sounds like you really just don't like muslims because they are on the opposite side of the israel-palestine conflict. Personally i agree that the situation is terrible, and quite a mess. But if you can't see there are several groups, factors, policies, wars and incidents to blame/explain the current situation you are blinded by the israeli perspective. There are always two sides of the story in conflicts that span decades. Lastly the israeli population is pretty divided in their political leanings and observations. Some are hardliners and certainly will sacrifice short-term peace in return of a total take over. A large part of the more progressive youth are split in their views, especially after mandatory IDF conscription. Parts of the large minority are frustrated with the hardliner rhetorics, still others cry for a more agressive stance. It seems to me that you ignore the nuances of regional conflicts. One of them being that Israel has not made any note worthy mistakes that would lead to any hatred towards them, which is ridiculous to expect in conflict with continous hot warfare, spanning several decades, and with a death toll much, much higher on the palestinian side.
  - ars 12y ago
    > Ok so we actually agree in that much of the animosity towards jews stems, not from an inherent theological constant in islam but rather the israeli conflict situation and other regional factors. Not quite. It doesn't stem from Israel, it stems from Jews (and other groups too!) raising their heads up and not being subservient. Israel is an example of this, but not the cause of this. Your claim is that it is because of Israel, as I said before this claim is wrong. Muslims do not have a problem with the Jewish religion, but they do have a problem with Jews. You abhorred the comparison to Nazis, and the comparison is not completely valid. But there is one thing in common: Both groups believe themself to be superior to all others. You are wrong when you think Muslim antisemitism is because of Israel.

by kossTKR 12y ago

ars 12y ago

You made a claim: > Most muslim "anti-semitism" in the west today stems from a frustration with israels war policy. Not an inherent racial doctrine. The claim is false. Why does it matter that the claim is false? Because it goes toward solutions. If your claim was true then solving the problems with Palestinians would solve the hatred. But since your claim is false this will not happen. There is in fact nothing Israel can do to stop the hate except not exist. (The subordinate thing I mentioned earlier.) They hate Jews not for their religion (I should have clarified that), but for existing as a strong nation. But their hate is directed toward Jews, not just toward Israel. > Also you sound extremely bigoted when you say "they just attacked israel because they hate jews so much". Come on. It's also true. Yes, they wanted territory and such, but why did the population support the attack? > The six-day war was 6 years prior, and Israel attacked first You are cherry picking yourself. Egypt closed the straights first, and started massing for war. Historians agree that Egypt was the belligerent here. > Lastly, i have a few israeli friends. They all loathe their own foreign policy as do large parts of the israeli population. Toward Egypt? No they do not. The Israeli population wants peace, that is why they are upset. But they do not loathe the policies, they loath that nothing has been solved. Especially after the utter failure that was the withdrawal from Gaza Israelis no longer really believe peace is possible. There is nothing Israel can do to accomplish it, except not exist.

kossTKR 12y ago
Ok so we actually agree in that much of the animosity towards jews stems, not from an inherent theological constant in islam but rather the israeli conflict situation and other regional factors. This was what i was trying to communicate, because the discussion started with a ridiculous comparison to nazi ideology. It sounds like you really just don't like muslims because they are on the opposite side of the israel-palestine conflict. Personally i agree that the situation is terrible, and quite a mess. But if you can't see there are several groups, factors, policies, wars and incidents to blame/explain the current situation you are blinded by the israeli perspective. There are always two sides of the story in conflicts that span decades. Lastly the israeli population is pretty divided in their political leanings and observations. Some are hardliners and certainly will sacrifice short-term peace in return of a total take over. A large part of the more progressive youth are split in their views, especially after mandatory IDF conscription. Parts of the large minority are frustrated with the hardliner rhetorics, still others cry for a more agressive stance. It seems to me that you ignore the nuances of regional conflicts. One of them being that Israel has not made any note worthy mistakes that would lead to any hatred towards them, which is ridiculous to expect in conflict with continous hot warfare, spanning several decades, and with a death toll much, much higher on the palestinian side.
- ars 12y ago
  > Ok so we actually agree in that much of the animosity towards jews stems, not from an inherent theological constant in islam but rather the israeli conflict situation and other regional factors. Not quite. It doesn't stem from Israel, it stems from Jews (and other groups too!) raising their heads up and not being subservient. Israel is an example of this, but not the cause of this. Your claim is that it is because of Israel, as I said before this claim is wrong. Muslims do not have a problem with the Jewish religion, but they do have a problem with Jews. You abhorred the comparison to Nazis, and the comparison is not completely valid. But there is one thing in common: Both groups believe themself to be superior to all others. You are wrong when you think Muslim antisemitism is because of Israel.