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Wow, this is sad. I knew the situation wasn't great, but it makes Breaking Bad look much more realistic than I thought. I guess the people who do it, don't do i

Wow, this is sad. I knew the situation wasn't great, but it makes Breaking Bad look much more realistic than I thought. I guess the people who do it, don't do it for the money, I hope that those 8% who make it to tenure, do it because they love what they do. I just hope they have enough energy to keep things up once they get there. There has to be a better way. I liked the mention of DIY scientists, if people could have done hobby medicine research the same way they can 3D print, start a SaaS company, built a home automation solution using an Arduino and some stuff from ebay, if doing DIY lab research would be as easy as launching a mini delorean style quadrocopter (search on youtube), I'm sure a lot of the community here in HN would have been working on the next cure for cancer.

longlivegnu 12y ago
I think DIY scientists have it the hardest, especially the ones that cannot survive without a job.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  Also because it's really hard to get published if you're not working with an organization. It has happened to me that I had to take someone as coauthor just because they knew scientific-paper-ese and were associated with $BIGLAB.
scrumper 12y ago
I'm reminded of 18th and 19th century astronomers and naturalists, some of whom made very important advances. Of course these were usually wealthy individuals before they came to science. Perhaps there's room for a 21st century form of patronage instead.
- Nelson69 12y ago
  First off, there are some fields where scientists can write their own ticket. Certain medical areas where an MD as well as a microbiological PhD is required, those guys just don't hardly exist... I've heard of relatively insane levels of pay for them. Then if you do get a good research position somewhere, you get your base pay and all but a lot of scientists reach out for grants and they can pay themselves from them, padding their base. If you can get one of those cherry positions, it's potentially way nicer than what most engineers make. If you work on things with industrial applications you can get royalties and such, all while working at a university. Seems a number of these places have like real pension type retirement programs as well. The haves in science are doing great, the vast majority are have-nots though and they live near poverty in a lot of positions. It's my opinion looking in (my wife is a scientist) is that there are 2 main problems: 1) Little understanding and appreciation for real science, it's thankless, there are tons of failures to usually make incremental progress, the level of meticulousness is something else.. and 2) They've got their own culture running it now and there is a history of paying dues and lot's of unwritten traditions about how you can grow and evolve a career. Post-docs don't get paid much, that's how it is, even if a lab can afford it, post-docs don't often get jobs where they post-doc, even if they're experts on the lab's area of work because that's just not how its done. It's kind of like how MDs are stereotypically just ground up by working insane shifts at the at their residency because that's what the doctors before them had to do, almost like hazing..
  - foobarqux 12y ago
    Can you elaborate on MD/PhD? What positions are these exactly and what qualifies as "insane" pay?
    - Fomite 12y ago
      "Insane" pay is, in my experience, not actually insane. Really good, solid six-figures, but not insane. Most MD/PhD positions are doing research directly applicable to medical treatments and/or clinical trials. And it's definitely possible to be an MD/PhD and not be paid a tremendous amount.
    - ryanSrich 12y ago
      Duke has an MD/PHD medical scientist degree - http://mstp.duke.edu/ http://mstp.duke.edu/
      - porejide 12y ago
        So do most medical schools in the US. Eg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Scientist_Training_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Scientist_Training_Prog...
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    >They've got their own culture running it now and there is a history of paying dues and lot's of unwritten traditions about how you can grow and evolve a career. There are also a lot of unwritten traditions on such basic matters as how to write and format a scientific paper. The standards are quite meticulous, and in many fields, nobody has actually bothered to write them down or teach them explicitly as course material to students.
- thenomad 12y ago
  I wonder if Patreon.com should add a "science" section?

longlivegnu 12y ago

I think DIY scientists have it the hardest, especially the ones that cannot survive without a job.

spiritplumber 12y ago
Also because it's really hard to get published if you're not working with an organization. It has happened to me that I had to take someone as coauthor just because they knew scientific-paper-ese and were associated with $BIGLAB.

scrumper 12y ago

I'm reminded of 18th and 19th century astronomers and naturalists, some of whom made very important advances. Of course these were usually wealthy individuals before they came to science. Perhaps there's room for a 21st century form of patronage instead.

Nelson69 12y ago
First off, there are some fields where scientists can write their own ticket. Certain medical areas where an MD as well as a microbiological PhD is required, those guys just don't hardly exist... I've heard of relatively insane levels of pay for them. Then if you do get a good research position somewhere, you get your base pay and all but a lot of scientists reach out for grants and they can pay themselves from them, padding their base. If you can get one of those cherry positions, it's potentially way nicer than what most engineers make. If you work on things with industrial applications you can get royalties and such, all while working at a university. Seems a number of these places have like real pension type retirement programs as well. The haves in science are doing great, the vast majority are have-nots though and they live near poverty in a lot of positions. It's my opinion looking in (my wife is a scientist) is that there are 2 main problems: 1) Little understanding and appreciation for real science, it's thankless, there are tons of failures to usually make incremental progress, the level of meticulousness is something else.. and 2) They've got their own culture running it now and there is a history of paying dues and lot's of unwritten traditions about how you can grow and evolve a career. Post-docs don't get paid much, that's how it is, even if a lab can afford it, post-docs don't often get jobs where they post-doc, even if they're experts on the lab's area of work because that's just not how its done. It's kind of like how MDs are stereotypically just ground up by working insane shifts at the at their residency because that's what the doctors before them had to do, almost like hazing..
- foobarqux 12y ago
  Can you elaborate on MD/PhD? What positions are these exactly and what qualifies as "insane" pay?
  - Fomite 12y ago
    "Insane" pay is, in my experience, not actually insane. Really good, solid six-figures, but not insane. Most MD/PhD positions are doing research directly applicable to medical treatments and/or clinical trials. And it's definitely possible to be an MD/PhD and not be paid a tremendous amount.
  - ryanSrich 12y ago
    Duke has an MD/PHD medical scientist degree - http://mstp.duke.edu/ http://mstp.duke.edu/
    - porejide 12y ago
      So do most medical schools in the US. Eg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Scientist_Training_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Scientist_Training_Prog...
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >They've got their own culture running it now and there is a history of paying dues and lot's of unwritten traditions about how you can grow and evolve a career. There are also a lot of unwritten traditions on such basic matters as how to write and format a scientific paper. The standards are quite meticulous, and in many fields, nobody has actually bothered to write them down or teach them explicitly as course material to students.
thenomad 12y ago
I wonder if Patreon.com should add a "science" section?