5 ms·

Replace science with medicine, or law, and the same still applies.

by AznHisoka 12y ago

toufka 12y ago
Yep. An entire generation of our society's most educated all in the same boat right now.
- saschajustin 12y ago
  Most educated? Yes. Most intelligent? No. Smart people have been shunning science and academia since the 90s. The best and brightest work on Wall Street and they do tend to have kids--their genes for intelligence do pass on. It is very encouraging to hear that people who make dumb life choices are being prevented from reproducing their foolish genes. Maybe in a few generations no one will be stupid enough to work for a boss that doesn't reward them, and then we will have reform. Downvote me all you want. You can't handle the truth.
  - justnotsure 12y ago
    you are a simpleton. In your world: smart == rich. In your world Justin Bieber is a f#ing genius.
  - tekromancr 12y ago
    Truth nothing, that is a petty, shortsighted view. Yea, if you want to go work for some thugs in the financial industry, go ahead, get your silver. The people who sacrifice their entire adult lives furthering knowledge for the sake of humanity deserve better.
kohanz 12y ago
Where I am (Canada), at least, doctors and lawyers will end up at their final positions with much more certainty than someone seeking a faculty position and they'll pay their debt off a lot faster.
declan 12y ago
>Replace science with medicine, or law, and the same still applies. I don't think that's true with law. The linked essay talks about "the 20 years of your adult life that a scientist typically spends proving they deserve a career." You can be a newly minted, bar-passed, practicing lawyer after spending 7 years of your adult life, and 6 years if you diligently optimize your course selections (typically 4 years undergrad, 3 years law school, plus a few months studying for the bar exam). That's a heck of lot less than 20 years, and matters a lot in terms of female fertility, the topic of the essay. And about 20% of new law school graduates will be making six figures in their new job. There's a sharp peak in the distribution of full-time salaries for new lawyers centered around $185K because of big law, with a larger, flatter peak centered around $60K thanks to small firms, nonprofits, and work that doesn't actually require a law degree. Those figures come from NALP data, and reflect the situation even during the lawyer/law school bubble the U.S. is in today. Note I'm not saying law is a necessarily a wiser choice; I know one big law associate who slept overnight on a partner's couch so much I helped her with the transport of a small refrigerator so she could keep meals at work. That's even though she lived within about four blocks of the office. She eventually quit to write novels.
- aetherson 12y ago
  Passing the bar does not "prove you deserve a career" in law to more or less the same degree that getting a PhD does not "prove you deserve a career" in academics. Plenty of lawyers who pass the bar (these days) ultimately are not successful as lawyers, and the low levels of attorneys at big law firms are a grind designed to weed people out in much the same way that tenure tracks are. Ditto finance. That's not to say that either law or finance take AS long as academics do to get to the point where you're secure in your position, but neither get it right out of their degrees.
  - declan 12y ago
    I think I largely agree with you; one major difference is the opportunity cost of science postdocs vs. other careers. Philip Greenspun's linked article elsewhere in the discussion is probably the best treatment I've ever read. But I would disagree with your concept of being "secure in your position." I'm not sure that happens nowadays outside of tenured academia, government bureaucracies, and union jobs. Perhaps you're "secure in your position" at a law firm if you're at the top of your game in terms of expertise, if the firm overall is well-managed, if you're responsible for a multi-million dollar book of business that's some multiple of your take as a partner, and if you're assured that your clients won't go elsewhere (or hire your associates to work as staff attorneys at a fraction of what you're charging). Meeting all those boolean AND requirements strikes me as a rather rare situation relative to the overall population of attorneys out there.
ForHackernews 12y ago
Not true of medicine in the US. The AMA functions as guild system, and medical doctors' salaries are kept extremely high. Yes, the training period is long and expensive, but at least there's a near-guaranteed payoff at the end. Law does suffer the same glut of workers relative to jobs as academia.
- ArkyBeagle 12y ago
  The salaries are not that high - let's say top 5% level.
  - anthony_d 12y ago
    Higher than 95% of population IS extremely high.
    - ArkyBeagle 12y ago
      It's only about 4-5x the median. $200k is not that high.
      - ForHackernews 12y ago
        A) $200k is very high, and if you disagree I'd say you're so out of touch with most Americans it borders on delusional. B) Only pediatricians and primary care doctors make as "little" as $200k. Most specialties have median salaries in the $300-$500k range and some surgeons make even more.[0] [0] http://work.chron.com/average-physician-salaries-specialty-6948.html http://work.chron.com/average-physician-salaries-specialty-6...
- rawdeegee 12y ago
  Same thing in Canada, guild system, though of course the ceiling is kept somewhat lower by having to negotiate with a single-payer system.
- krallja 12y ago
  Training is not guaranteed, even with a medical degree. There are fewer residency positions available (and more graduating seniors) with every year.

Replace science with medicine, or law, and the same still applies.

toufka 12y ago

Yep. An entire generation of our society's most educated all in the same boat right now.

saschajustin 12y ago
Most educated? Yes. Most intelligent? No. Smart people have been shunning science and academia since the 90s. The best and brightest work on Wall Street and they do tend to have kids--their genes for intelligence do pass on. It is very encouraging to hear that people who make dumb life choices are being prevented from reproducing their foolish genes. Maybe in a few generations no one will be stupid enough to work for a boss that doesn't reward them, and then we will have reform. Downvote me all you want. You can't handle the truth.
- justnotsure 12y ago
  you are a simpleton. In your world: smart == rich. In your world Justin Bieber is a f#ing genius.
- tekromancr 12y ago
  Truth nothing, that is a petty, shortsighted view. Yea, if you want to go work for some thugs in the financial industry, go ahead, get your silver. The people who sacrifice their entire adult lives furthering knowledge for the sake of humanity deserve better.

kohanz 12y ago

Where I am (Canada), at least, doctors and lawyers will end up at their final positions with much more certainty than someone seeking a faculty position and they'll pay their debt off a lot faster.

declan 12y ago

>Replace science with medicine, or law, and the same still applies. I don't think that's true with law. The linked essay talks about "the 20 years of your adult life that a scientist typically spends proving they deserve a career." You can be a newly minted, bar-passed, practicing lawyer after spending 7 years of your adult life, and 6 years if you diligently optimize your course selections (typically 4 years undergrad, 3 years law school, plus a few months studying for the bar exam). That's a heck of lot less than 20 years, and matters a lot in terms of female fertility, the topic of the essay. And about 20% of new law school graduates will be making six figures in their new job. There's a sharp peak in the distribution of full-time salaries for new lawyers centered around $185K because of big law, with a larger, flatter peak centered around $60K thanks to small firms, nonprofits, and work that doesn't actually require a law degree. Those figures come from NALP data, and reflect the situation even during the lawyer/law school bubble the U.S. is in today. Note I'm not saying law is a necessarily a wiser choice; I know one big law associate who slept overnight on a partner's couch so much I helped her with the transport of a small refrigerator so she could keep meals at work. That's even though she lived within about four blocks of the office. She eventually quit to write novels.

aetherson 12y ago
Passing the bar does not "prove you deserve a career" in law to more or less the same degree that getting a PhD does not "prove you deserve a career" in academics. Plenty of lawyers who pass the bar (these days) ultimately are not successful as lawyers, and the low levels of attorneys at big law firms are a grind designed to weed people out in much the same way that tenure tracks are. Ditto finance. That's not to say that either law or finance take AS long as academics do to get to the point where you're secure in your position, but neither get it right out of their degrees.
- declan 12y ago
  I think I largely agree with you; one major difference is the opportunity cost of science postdocs vs. other careers. Philip Greenspun's linked article elsewhere in the discussion is probably the best treatment I've ever read. But I would disagree with your concept of being "secure in your position." I'm not sure that happens nowadays outside of tenured academia, government bureaucracies, and union jobs. Perhaps you're "secure in your position" at a law firm if you're at the top of your game in terms of expertise, if the firm overall is well-managed, if you're responsible for a multi-million dollar book of business that's some multiple of your take as a partner, and if you're assured that your clients won't go elsewhere (or hire your associates to work as staff attorneys at a fraction of what you're charging). Meeting all those boolean AND requirements strikes me as a rather rare situation relative to the overall population of attorneys out there.

ForHackernews 12y ago

Not true of medicine in the US. The AMA functions as guild system, and medical doctors' salaries are kept extremely high. Yes, the training period is long and expensive, but at least there's a near-guaranteed payoff at the end. Law does suffer the same glut of workers relative to jobs as academia.

ArkyBeagle 12y ago
The salaries are not that high - let's say top 5% level.
- anthony_d 12y ago
  Higher than 95% of population IS extremely high.
  - ArkyBeagle 12y ago
    It's only about 4-5x the median. $200k is not that high.
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      A) $200k is very high, and if you disagree I'd say you're so out of touch with most Americans it borders on delusional. B) Only pediatricians and primary care doctors make as "little" as $200k. Most specialties have median salaries in the $300-$500k range and some surgeons make even more.[0] [0] http://work.chron.com/average-physician-salaries-specialty-6948.html http://work.chron.com/average-physician-salaries-specialty-6...
rawdeegee 12y ago
Same thing in Canada, guild system, though of course the ceiling is kept somewhat lower by having to negotiate with a single-payer system.
krallja 12y ago
Training is not guaranteed, even with a medical degree. There are fewer residency positions available (and more graduating seniors) with every year.