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When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremel

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did something dumb, they would point out the mistakes after implementation, but never in a "I'm smarter than you" way. Of course, since then I've had many jobs where the other engineers were always hypercritical as this article points out. In this industry there certainly is an undercurrent of everyone trying to prove how smart they are by showing why everyone else is dumber than them. However, I'll never forget my first mentors and I try to respond exactly as they did, which is be supportive to any of the junior engineers that I mentor. I always try to not say "no", even if I feel they are wrong, and I always engage in a conversation. Even if I disagree with what they want to do, I'll try give them the opportunity to prove me wrong (within reason) as opposed to simply shutting them down with a curt "you're wrong, no."

HCIdivision17 12y ago
When I was a newbie engineer (ha!) I remember talking to senior engineers, and having a bit of trouble keeping up with the conversations. It didn't seem to flow right. I would try to agree or provide supporting/counter evidence and just couldn't keep tack of what direction we were heading. Now, I realize they were just thoughtful. While I was rushing to a destination, they were feeling out the problem. They knew how to handle the middle stage where sides haven't been chosen yet and bias is still settling. At first I took the phrase "well, let's think about that for a moment" as a trigger, but I've caught myself saying it a lot. They weren't implying that I hadn't already thought about it, but rather their way of slowing down and smelling the roses, in a technical way. And I can remember every time this led to a long discussion. Easily some of my favorite times working involved a senior engineer looking off and asking "well, let's take a closer look at this."
dmarg 12y ago
Your point is spot on for a good senior level person in any field. Being supportive and letting people fail or succeed with positive reinforcement helps move a working environment in a better direction. When that environment is better then you will attract and retain better quality employees. Win-win all around but just depends on how the senior level people and management act and create that environment in the beginning.
- dohertyjf 12y ago
  I try to address this by asking a lot of questions about why they're choosing to do something in a particular way. Don't go at it with trying to poke holes in it (which is the point of the original post), but rather to understand what they are doing and why. Ultimately, the job of the senior person/manager is to set the vision/direction and ultimately trust the person to do what's right. This is hard with junior people, but you were allowed to screw up (and succeed) when younger, so allow them to do the same thing :-)
dhimes 12y ago
It's not just 'this industry.' You'll find people in all professions who try to make themselves look and feel smart by throwing stones at other ideas. Frankly, it can be effective. Non-expert outside observers (sometimes this means managers) can be impressed by such cheap-shot artists. It's easy to criticize, but hard to create; critical responses are the low-hanging fruit of intellectual discourse.
- hamoid 12y ago
  Your comment made me remember a documentary titled "The Trouble with Experts" which I found interesting. It can be found in youtube atm.
- hyc_symas 12y ago
  Yes, it's hard to create. But after 35+ years writing software, I haven't just seen it all, I've done it all. This topic is surprisingly well timed for me; just the other day I was reflecting on the fact that most times I'm moved to comment on something, it's sharp criticism. I was wondering if I've just got a massive negative attitude; I would prefer to be more positive in my approach to life. But this is the reality - most of what I'm criticizing really is stupid crap. And when something comes along that's actually praiseworthy, I acknowledge that accordingly too. It's just that those events are few and far between. As for ideas presented by newbies, my initial reaction depends a lot on presentation. If it's an overly excited, enthusiastic "hey guys, look at this amazing new thing I've created" I'm more inclined to judge it harshly. If it's a more measured, "I think this could be interesting" I'll be more inclined to study it and evaluate it supportively. The message defines the messenger, and sometimes the messenger deserves to be shot. Someone above commented about negative critique reflecting arrogance and ignorance from the critiquer. I think the case I just described is the opposite - it is arrogant and ignorant of the newbie to believe they've discovered something that no one has thought of before. Most of the time you can point them to previous solutions with no more than a few seconds' thought. Most of the time their approach demonstrates that they don't understand the system they're working with, and don't even understand the problem they think they've solved. A cautious presentation indicates that they've thought it through and are aware of their own limitations - I always encourage thoughtfulness. An over-excited presentation generally means the opposite, and I will discourage them strongly and harshly. There's no excuse for ignorance, not in this age of ubiquitous access to information. This isn't kindergarten. Not everybody deserves a gold star.
robbyking 12y ago
In my experience in my areas of interest (be it music, cycling, or software development) that it’s the knowledgable, confident members of these communities who are encouraging and happy to share what they know, and it’s the inexperienced, insecure ones who are standoffish and quick to dismiss others’ abilities.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  You're absolutely correct. The problem with software development is for some reason, there's an environment that makes a hell of a lot of people insecure, and then it feeds on itself (more insecure people criticizing, creating more insecurity). Why are people so insecure in software? I have no idea. Outsourcing? Social backgrounds?
  - JustSomeNobody 12y ago
    I commented on the story, but I'll reiterate a point I made here. Coding is all mental. When you question how or why a developer wrote a bit of code, it's like you're questioning their intelligence. Some developers find this hard to take and they build up a defensive posture because of it.
sillysaurus3 12y ago
It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're probably lying," "This is like a parent posting their kindergartener's first crayon house-and-trees-and-sun drawings out into blogs," etc. And most of those comments were heavily endorsed by this community, judging by their overall position relative to sibling comments. So if HN is a thermometer for how friendly tech is, apparently nice people are rare. Hopefully the culture will change, but that will take a lot of time. (Now that I've posted this comment, I realize that it's not very supportive, which is a little ironic. Maybe a post-it note on my monitor that says "Be supportive!" would be a good reminder.)
- bduerst 12y ago
  The internet phenomenon of simultaneously granting voice with anonymity has definitely given rise to much more critical, negative discussion, which is ultimately fruitless and detracts from community value. Like you said, it takes work to be supportive, and if your voice isn't tied to your reputation, many will forgo even attempting it. That's not to say the workplace is the same though. Some people have figured out that support begets support, and put forth the effort. Online though, it's almost the tragedy of the commons, where users will take only what they want out of a community without even thinking about contributing to it's value or future.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    True enough, but it may be one reason there are comparatively few women in tech. People choose a career for themselves when they're years of work away from being in any workplace. Hacker News is the closest thing that people will get to knowing what it's like to work in tech. Which is unfortunate, since HN is nothing like working in tech. Remember the brogrammer phenomenon? At the time, it almost seemed like that was the direction the industry might be headed. Luckily not.
diminoten 12y ago
This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed to do? I can't accept the code they write, and if/when I point out why I can't, they won't bother updating the code, and prefer to instead just disengage entirely from the process to go work on something else.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  >I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. Why do you think that is? (Sincere question)
  - Kalium 12y ago
    There's a surprisingly large number of coders who believe themselves much better than they are. Giving them useful feedback, no matter how supportive or positive, is extremely difficult.
    - pekk 12y ago
      How did you determine that you are not one of the coders who believe themselves better than they are? Because if you are misled about your own ability, you might also be misled about which feedback is useful. Is it possible that there is a surprisingly large number of coders who believe their feedback more useful than it is? If coder feedback tends to be useful, then isn't it likely that meta-feedback on the usefulness of feedback is useful?
      - Kalium 12y ago
        Then suddenly it becomes impossible to offer any feedback. Or discuss offering feedback. Or discuss even the possibility of feedback. ----- How do you feel about goldfish?
moultano 12y ago
I'm of two minds about this. I like supporting new ideas, but I've found that the quickest way to build the confidence of a new engineer is for them to have something succeed. So I do think there's a balance that has to be struck between supporting whatever they want to try and guiding them towards things that will give them their first taste of success.
- pothibo 12y ago
  Shipping is better for the confidence. And if you build a prototype that makes it into the product, boy does that raise the confidence level.
- dohertyjf 12y ago
  This is true in every sector of work. People are motivated by success. As a marketer who manages a team of 8 (including myself), I've been trying to learn to a) give context into why I might be poo-pooing something and b) a few ideas for other directions we could go. Part of the job of being a mentor and manager is to guide them in a helpful way to greatness. Allowing them to work on whatever they want to work on is no way to build someone's confidence and skills, let alone a business.
a3n 12y ago
> since then I've had many jobs where the other engineers were always hypercritical Bullying is not exclusive to jocks. I've always seen any kind of bullying, from anyone, as a sign of severe insecurity.
spiritplumber 12y ago
The culture must've changed... I've recently had people in Silicon Valley tell me "this would never work" when they were staring at a working prototype. I generally avoid the south bay now.

HCIdivision17 12y ago

When I was a newbie engineer (ha!) I remember talking to senior engineers, and having a bit of trouble keeping up with the conversations. It didn't seem to flow right. I would try to agree or provide supporting/counter evidence and just couldn't keep tack of what direction we were heading. Now, I realize they were just thoughtful. While I was rushing to a destination, they were feeling out the problem. They knew how to handle the middle stage where sides haven't been chosen yet and bias is still settling. At first I took the phrase "well, let's think about that for a moment" as a trigger, but I've caught myself saying it a lot. They weren't implying that I hadn't already thought about it, but rather their way of slowing down and smelling the roses, in a technical way. And I can remember every time this led to a long discussion. Easily some of my favorite times working involved a senior engineer looking off and asking "well, let's take a closer look at this."

dmarg 12y ago

Your point is spot on for a good senior level person in any field. Being supportive and letting people fail or succeed with positive reinforcement helps move a working environment in a better direction. When that environment is better then you will attract and retain better quality employees. Win-win all around but just depends on how the senior level people and management act and create that environment in the beginning.

dohertyjf 12y ago
I try to address this by asking a lot of questions about why they're choosing to do something in a particular way. Don't go at it with trying to poke holes in it (which is the point of the original post), but rather to understand what they are doing and why. Ultimately, the job of the senior person/manager is to set the vision/direction and ultimately trust the person to do what's right. This is hard with junior people, but you were allowed to screw up (and succeed) when younger, so allow them to do the same thing :-)

dhimes 12y ago

It's not just 'this industry.' You'll find people in all professions who try to make themselves look and feel smart by throwing stones at other ideas. Frankly, it can be effective. Non-expert outside observers (sometimes this means managers) can be impressed by such cheap-shot artists. It's easy to criticize, but hard to create; critical responses are the low-hanging fruit of intellectual discourse.

hamoid 12y ago
Your comment made me remember a documentary titled "The Trouble with Experts" which I found interesting. It can be found in youtube atm.
hyc_symas 12y ago
Yes, it's hard to create. But after 35+ years writing software, I haven't just seen it all, I've done it all. This topic is surprisingly well timed for me; just the other day I was reflecting on the fact that most times I'm moved to comment on something, it's sharp criticism. I was wondering if I've just got a massive negative attitude; I would prefer to be more positive in my approach to life. But this is the reality - most of what I'm criticizing really is stupid crap. And when something comes along that's actually praiseworthy, I acknowledge that accordingly too. It's just that those events are few and far between. As for ideas presented by newbies, my initial reaction depends a lot on presentation. If it's an overly excited, enthusiastic "hey guys, look at this amazing new thing I've created" I'm more inclined to judge it harshly. If it's a more measured, "I think this could be interesting" I'll be more inclined to study it and evaluate it supportively. The message defines the messenger, and sometimes the messenger deserves to be shot. Someone above commented about negative critique reflecting arrogance and ignorance from the critiquer. I think the case I just described is the opposite - it is arrogant and ignorant of the newbie to believe they've discovered something that no one has thought of before. Most of the time you can point them to previous solutions with no more than a few seconds' thought. Most of the time their approach demonstrates that they don't understand the system they're working with, and don't even understand the problem they think they've solved. A cautious presentation indicates that they've thought it through and are aware of their own limitations - I always encourage thoughtfulness. An over-excited presentation generally means the opposite, and I will discourage them strongly and harshly. There's no excuse for ignorance, not in this age of ubiquitous access to information. This isn't kindergarten. Not everybody deserves a gold star.

robbyking 12y ago

In my experience in my areas of interest (be it music, cycling, or software development) that it’s the knowledgable, confident members of these communities who are encouraging and happy to share what they know, and it’s the inexperienced, insecure ones who are standoffish and quick to dismiss others’ abilities.

jnbiche 12y ago
You're absolutely correct. The problem with software development is for some reason, there's an environment that makes a hell of a lot of people insecure, and then it feeds on itself (more insecure people criticizing, creating more insecurity). Why are people so insecure in software? I have no idea. Outsourcing? Social backgrounds?
- JustSomeNobody 12y ago
  I commented on the story, but I'll reiterate a point I made here. Coding is all mental. When you question how or why a developer wrote a bit of code, it's like you're questioning their intelligence. Some developers find this hard to take and they build up a defensive posture because of it.

sillysaurus3 12y ago

It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're probably lying," "This is like a parent posting their kindergartener's first crayon house-and-trees-and-sun drawings out into blogs," etc. And most of those comments were heavily endorsed by this community, judging by their overall position relative to sibling comments. So if HN is a thermometer for how friendly tech is, apparently nice people are rare. Hopefully the culture will change, but that will take a lot of time. (Now that I've posted this comment, I realize that it's not very supportive, which is a little ironic. Maybe a post-it note on my monitor that says "Be supportive!" would be a good reminder.)

bduerst 12y ago
The internet phenomenon of simultaneously granting voice with anonymity has definitely given rise to much more critical, negative discussion, which is ultimately fruitless and detracts from community value. Like you said, it takes work to be supportive, and if your voice isn't tied to your reputation, many will forgo even attempting it. That's not to say the workplace is the same though. Some people have figured out that support begets support, and put forth the effort. Online though, it's almost the tragedy of the commons, where users will take only what they want out of a community without even thinking about contributing to it's value or future.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  True enough, but it may be one reason there are comparatively few women in tech. People choose a career for themselves when they're years of work away from being in any workplace. Hacker News is the closest thing that people will get to knowing what it's like to work in tech. Which is unfortunate, since HN is nothing like working in tech. Remember the brogrammer phenomenon? At the time, it almost seemed like that was the direction the industry might be headed. Luckily not.

diminoten 12y ago

This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed to do? I can't accept the code they write, and if/when I point out why I can't, they won't bother updating the code, and prefer to instead just disengage entirely from the process to go work on something else.

jnbiche 12y ago
>I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. Why do you think that is? (Sincere question)
- Kalium 12y ago
  There's a surprisingly large number of coders who believe themselves much better than they are. Giving them useful feedback, no matter how supportive or positive, is extremely difficult.
  - pekk 12y ago
    How did you determine that you are not one of the coders who believe themselves better than they are? Because if you are misled about your own ability, you might also be misled about which feedback is useful. Is it possible that there is a surprisingly large number of coders who believe their feedback more useful than it is? If coder feedback tends to be useful, then isn't it likely that meta-feedback on the usefulness of feedback is useful?
    - Kalium 12y ago
      Then suddenly it becomes impossible to offer any feedback. Or discuss offering feedback. Or discuss even the possibility of feedback. ----- How do you feel about goldfish?

moultano 12y ago

I'm of two minds about this. I like supporting new ideas, but I've found that the quickest way to build the confidence of a new engineer is for them to have something succeed. So I do think there's a balance that has to be struck between supporting whatever they want to try and guiding them towards things that will give them their first taste of success.

pothibo 12y ago
Shipping is better for the confidence. And if you build a prototype that makes it into the product, boy does that raise the confidence level.
dohertyjf 12y ago
This is true in every sector of work. People are motivated by success. As a marketer who manages a team of 8 (including myself), I've been trying to learn to a) give context into why I might be poo-pooing something and b) a few ideas for other directions we could go. Part of the job of being a mentor and manager is to guide them in a helpful way to greatness. Allowing them to work on whatever they want to work on is no way to build someone's confidence and skills, let alone a business.

a3n 12y ago

> since then I've had many jobs where the other engineers were always hypercritical Bullying is not exclusive to jocks. I've always seen any kind of bullying, from anyone, as a sign of severe insecurity.

spiritplumber 12y ago

The culture must've changed... I've recently had people in Silicon Valley tell me "this would never work" when they were staring at a working prototype. I generally avoid the south bay now.