4 ms·

Since I'll probably get more than a few downvotes for my main comment below, I'll start by saying that I adjunct teach software development at our local CC, eve

by danjayh 12y ago

Since I'll probably get more than a few downvotes for my main comment below, I'll start by saying that I adjunct teach software development at our local CC, even though the pay (if you calculate it on a 'per hour' basis) is way less than my 'real' job. Adjuncts get screwed, but I enjoy teaching, and appreciate the opportunities that CC gives to students ... I just wanted to frame my comment so that you understand my perspective. Now, on to the part that's going to get me into trouble: I completely and totally disagree with the idea of letting students attend CC without paying. Many students coming into CC, even when they are responsible for part of the tuition (which at most current CCs is only about 30%), struggle to find motivation to work hard on their classes and finish them. Although some students surely would benefit from 'free' college (I put it in quotes because nothing is free -- the rest of us will be paying for it), I do not think that offering free CC is a good use of taxpayer money. Simply put, CC is already heavily subsidized, and I think that if the students have no skin in it at all they'll be less motivated to succeed, which doesn't do anyone any favors. Additionally, for those students who do try, and who do succeed, the potential return will GREATLY eclipse their investment (as you noted). For these students, it is once again totally unnecessary to subsidize tuition because their increased income will more than offset the cost of their education.

withdavidli 12y ago
Not downvoting, there's a legitamate concern about skin in the game mentality. But that's not how it is now. People take on debt by signing a piece of paper, they have no idea what that amount really means until they start paying it off. College loans are too easy to get, 20k here, 40k there, don't start paying until 4 years after. At 18 years old, how many students have experience struggling with interest payments that would take up almost all their disposable income? Another thing is the peer pressure to attend college from an early age. Those that don't qualify for top tier schools settle for 2nd and 3rd choices, sometime state schools, other times private colleges that are basically degree mills charging 30k/yr.
bane 12y ago
I actually agree with you. I also saw my fair share of folks who were not in the frame of mind to appreciate the incredible opportunity they were given. They were looking at CC as a place where only dumb kids go, or that they were better than where they were or were just looking for a place to hang out and meet people to party. I think that people should be paying something to go. But not too much. I've also observed that people who couldn't normally afford CC monetarily also can't really afford it timewise. They're already working 2 jobs or whatever. And the kind of time commitment education requires simply isn't possible. What concerns me also is the continued rise in CC tuition (along with other tuition at other schools). CC works because it's cheap and it's real college. But once the prices start to rise to real college levels, it stops working. I think when I went it was something like $50/crhr. It's well over $150 right now (out of state is over $350). I would not be able to send myself to CC today if I was in the same position.
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
> I think that if the students have no skin in it at all they'll be less motivated to succeed, which doesn't do anyone any favors. How can you put something at risk for people who don't have anything to risk?
jghn 12y ago
FWIW even in a standard university ~20 years ago I saw an enormous difference in motivation levels between students who were really paying for themselves (as in they were fronting money every semester) vs. those who were not (or it was all funny money at the time which they'd pay years later). I had a few friends in school who transferred in from CC. They weren't in CC because they were poor students (quite the opposite!) but simply because that's all they could afford, and this provided an opportunity to work towards greater scholarships and such to supplement their jobs and allow them to go to the 4-year. These were the most motivated students I came across in my time.

by danjayh 12y ago

withdavidli 12y ago

Not downvoting, there's a legitamate concern about skin in the game mentality. But that's not how it is now. People take on debt by signing a piece of paper, they have no idea what that amount really means until they start paying it off. College loans are too easy to get, 20k here, 40k there, don't start paying until 4 years after. At 18 years old, how many students have experience struggling with interest payments that would take up almost all their disposable income? Another thing is the peer pressure to attend college from an early age. Those that don't qualify for top tier schools settle for 2nd and 3rd choices, sometime state schools, other times private colleges that are basically degree mills charging 30k/yr.

bane 12y ago

I actually agree with you. I also saw my fair share of folks who were not in the frame of mind to appreciate the incredible opportunity they were given. They were looking at CC as a place where only dumb kids go, or that they were better than where they were or were just looking for a place to hang out and meet people to party. I think that people should be paying something to go. But not too much. I've also observed that people who couldn't normally afford CC monetarily also can't really afford it timewise. They're already working 2 jobs or whatever. And the kind of time commitment education requires simply isn't possible. What concerns me also is the continued rise in CC tuition (along with other tuition at other schools). CC works because it's cheap and it's real college. But once the prices start to rise to real college levels, it stops working. I think when I went it was something like $50/crhr. It's well over $150 right now (out of state is over $350). I would not be able to send myself to CC today if I was in the same position.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

> I think that if the students have no skin in it at all they'll be less motivated to succeed, which doesn't do anyone any favors. How can you put something at risk for people who don't have anything to risk?

jghn 12y ago

FWIW even in a standard university ~20 years ago I saw an enormous difference in motivation levels between students who were really paying for themselves (as in they were fronting money every semester) vs. those who were not (or it was all funny money at the time which they'd pay years later). I had a few friends in school who transferred in from CC. They weren't in CC because they were poor students (quite the opposite!) but simply because that's all they could afford, and this provided an opportunity to work towards greater scholarships and such to supplement their jobs and allow them to go to the 4-year. These were the most motivated students I came across in my time.