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> people feel like they need to take on this debt to spend 4 years learning (and forgetting) material that they will never use, for degrees that probably won't

> people feel like they need to take on this debt to spend 4 years learning (and forgetting) material that they will never use, for degrees that probably won't be relevant to their career. Just to get a slip of paper that says "bachelor's degree". It is trapping people. My wife and I have this argument frequently and I usually take your position. She likes to point out that college graduates are not just earning more than their less-educated peers, but the income gap has never been wider between young college graduates and those who only finished high school: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-to-college/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of... I think we can all be angry that most colleges don't measure or seem to care whether students are better thinkers by the time they graduate. Too many are interested in funding third-rate research by second-rate academics, too few are interested in pedagogy and making sure their faculty are good teachers. Why is the lecture still the core of university teaching when everything we're discovering about human learning says it's a terrible way to teach anyone anything?

EpicEng 12y ago
Looking at the broad stroke (i.e., median income) can be useful, but if I were helping my child make this decision, I wouldn't focus on that. Depending on the career path, income can be highly variable. I also think that these numbers are skewed by the fact that more and more jobs are requiring degrees which didn't before. I would also argue that degrees should not be required for many of these positions. I mean, a Bachelor's of Hospitality? Restaurant management? Come on, learn that on the job.
- eastbayjake 12y ago
  The other part I don't like about these conversations is that I still really believe that a good college education isn't about learning a job skill. It's the one time in your life that you can think full-time about life's big questions and devote yourself fully to intellectual curiosity. It's a shame to use that time to learn about restaurant management. But it's crazy that it costs $50k/year to read great books and discuss them with a small group. It's a crazy price if you're intellectually uncurious and just want to get a job. It's an especially crazy price if you just want to party and grow up a bit before working. Our society should have room for both vocational schools and big-picture-intellectualism schools. It's part of the reason I'm so excited about developer bootcamps, if only as a model of what adult vocational learning could look like -- shorter time commitment, much lower cost compared to university, and a faculty fully devoted to pedagogy and student outcomes. You should be able to attend a low-cost big-picture-intellectualism school for a while if you want, then learn vocational skills at another school when you're ready to work.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    "Our society should have room for both vocational schools and big-picture-intellectualism schools." Moreover, it should be reasonable for someone to attend both.
deleted 12y ago
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aaron-lebo 12y ago
Yes, especially when you consider that professors aren't rewarded for being good teachers, they are rewarded (tenure) by spending less time teaching well and more time on research (I apologize if this is redundant with what you have already said). The incentives are all out of whack.
- eastbayjake 12y ago
  Yeah, just one example: the world doesn't need another paper on symbolism in Ulysses, it needs English professors who help legions of young people become good writers and thinkers. The "research" that's being done by departments outside of the Top 100 -- maybe even the Top 25 -- has an extremely low marginal benefit compared to better educating undergraduates.

EpicEng 12y ago

Looking at the broad stroke (i.e., median income) can be useful, but if I were helping my child make this decision, I wouldn't focus on that. Depending on the career path, income can be highly variable. I also think that these numbers are skewed by the fact that more and more jobs are requiring degrees which didn't before. I would also argue that degrees should not be required for many of these positions. I mean, a Bachelor's of Hospitality? Restaurant management? Come on, learn that on the job.

eastbayjake 12y ago
The other part I don't like about these conversations is that I still really believe that a good college education isn't about learning a job skill. It's the one time in your life that you can think full-time about life's big questions and devote yourself fully to intellectual curiosity. It's a shame to use that time to learn about restaurant management. But it's crazy that it costs $50k/year to read great books and discuss them with a small group. It's a crazy price if you're intellectually uncurious and just want to get a job. It's an especially crazy price if you just want to party and grow up a bit before working. Our society should have room for both vocational schools and big-picture-intellectualism schools. It's part of the reason I'm so excited about developer bootcamps, if only as a model of what adult vocational learning could look like -- shorter time commitment, much lower cost compared to university, and a faculty fully devoted to pedagogy and student outcomes. You should be able to attend a low-cost big-picture-intellectualism school for a while if you want, then learn vocational skills at another school when you're ready to work.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  "Our society should have room for both vocational schools and big-picture-intellectualism schools." Moreover, it should be reasonable for someone to attend both.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

aaron-lebo 12y ago

Yes, especially when you consider that professors aren't rewarded for being good teachers, they are rewarded (tenure) by spending less time teaching well and more time on research (I apologize if this is redundant with what you have already said). The incentives are all out of whack.

eastbayjake 12y ago
Yeah, just one example: the world doesn't need another paper on symbolism in Ulysses, it needs English professors who help legions of young people become good writers and thinkers. The "research" that's being done by departments outside of the Top 100 -- maybe even the Top 25 -- has an extremely low marginal benefit compared to better educating undergraduates.