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> "open, tolerant and inclusive society" This is what we need, not the usual approach of using tragic events to justify new surveillance, law enforcement power

by lbenes 12y ago

> "open, tolerant and inclusive society" This is what we need, not the usual approach of using tragic events to justify new surveillance, law enforcement powers, or military action. The only response that could offer a real long term solution is outreach and education, because fundamentalisms only flourishes in an environment of ignorance and poverty. One of the few downsides of the technological revolution that we live in, is that everyday it lowers the barrier of entry develop nuclear or biological weapons. If we don't do something about extremest, they will be the cause of our civilization's demise. In the past decade, we have spent $3 trillion fighting wars in the Middle East.[1] That money and our presence there hasn't worked, it's only created a new generation that hate Western values. I just watched on news footage of hangars and barracks being bulldozed in Afghanistan.[2] What I saw was potential schools and homes being bulldozed. Imaging what could have been accomplished after 911 with $3 trillion invested instead in Education, Science, and Technology. Imagine the good over $800 million each day for a decade could do. Let's stop dropping bombs and start teaching. That's the only way we're going to end this vicious cycle before it's too late for all of us. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09... [2] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-war-60-minutes-lara-logan/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-war-60-minutes-lara-...

maroonblazer 12y ago
>"because fundamentalisms only flourishes in an environment of ignorance and poverty." Do you mean ignorance as in poorly-educated? Nearly all the 19 hijackers of 911 were quite well-educated. Or are you referring to ignorance rooted in a belief in myth and superstition as manifested in religion? How kindly do you think people are going to take to being told, if even implicitly - by "infidels" no less - that they're belief system has rendered them ignorant? For that matter non-muslims playing any role in the arab world is considered an abomination by fundamentalists. I agree that change needs to happen but am not convinced it can come from the West. It needs to come from within Islam and the Muslim community. They need their own Reformation.
- notsony 12y ago
  Reformation is unlikely to come from within the Islamic community. In the clip below, from Norway, English-speaking Muslims ridicule and dismiss the Western concepts of moderate and extremist Islam. Their rationale is that the same beliefs are shared by the majority. This should worry everyone. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZataEz_m73E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZataEz_m73E
  - stevenjohns 12y ago
    > Reformation is unlikely to come from within the Islamic community. I wrote a long response to this but I decided to delete it. Basically this is not very accurate, and familiarity with history of the Middle East and North Africa (including ideologies like Arab nationalism and Ba'athism, or figures like Gamal Abdel Naseer and Hafez al Assad) would show that it certainly can come from within the Islamic world-- primarily because the Islamic world are the prime targets and overwhelmingly the majority of the victims of these actions. > Their rationale is that the same beliefs are shared by the majority. Their rationale is also that the majority of Muslims are hypocrites and are not "real" Muslims (when compared to those who follow the extremists' perverse Wahabbi fiqh within the Sunni Hanbali maddhab) or else they would agree with them. Unless we haven't noticed, the prime victim of Islamic extremism is other Muslims, and the prime opposition towards Islamic extremism is other Muslims. To go even further, the primary enemy of ISIS is actually Al Qaeda (in the form of Jabhat al Nusra) and vice versa. When they say there is no moderate or extremist Muslim, it is because the moderate Muslim does not recognize the extremist as a Muslim, and the extremist does not recognize the moderate as a Muslim. Even the Muslim extremists do not recognize other Muslim extremists as Muslim if they do not pledge allegiance. There is a reason why these extremist folk are called "Takfiris"-- it literally means "those who accuse others of disbelief." Here [1] is a video between the Western-backed terrorists in Syria and ISIS on a two-way radio call. Pay close attention from about 40s, especially when the Western-backed terrorists ask the ISIS fighters why they do not attack Israel As an anecdote: In Iraq a fatwa was issued by Ayotallah Sistani to refer to ISIS as "Daesh al Murtad" ("ISIS who has left Islam") but it was eventually brought down to "Asa'ib daesh" ("the gangs of ISIS") so as to avoid the "moderates" receiving the takfiri labeling as it is considered inflammatory. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbY9uU3kQc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbY9uU3kQc0
saiya-jin 12y ago
"That money and our presence there hasn't worked" - I don't agree. It is valid if you are naive and believe US went around the world twice to spread goodwill and western values to those who despised them anyway, by blasting hundrets of thousands of civilians (and few armed guys along) to pieces. But, if you look at those adventures from economical perspective of those who have huge influence in US politics all the way to white house and can profit nicely from any war effort, there are no big mysteries. Or, just "follow the money" works nicely. - completely agree on that cash spending point. in fact, my personal opinion is that we shouldn't try to reach the stars/other planets until we solve our massive issues here, ie no person should die from hunger, all children should get proper education/health care, minimize polluting/raping our own ecosystem etc. You know, the basics of fabric of any sustainable advanced society that we sometimes claim to be/aspire to be. - multiculturalism has largely not worked, at least not for europe's immigration. the issue is lack of any proper integration, accepting european values etc. People here are well aware, and incidents like these will play nicely in hands of terrorists. Further polarization of society, meaning more jihad recruits, more attacks and so on. It doesn't matter that maybe 98% of muslims here are nice people that don't cause any issues (apart from that integration, but if I were living in muslim country, I wouldn't accept their values neither). US fares much better in this aspect.
- gambiting 12y ago
  >>my personal opinion is that we shouldn't try to reach the stars/other planets until we solve our massive issues here, ie no person should die from hunger, all children should get proper education/health care, minimize polluting/raping our own ecosystem etc. You know, the basics of fabric of any sustainable advanced society that we sometimes claim to be/aspire to be. So how do you suggest to achieve that? A person grows up and wants to go and study rocket science, and you come up and go "sorry kid, come back once kids stop starving in Nigeria"? You can't just assume that if we halt progress in one area then magically the production capacities will transfer to other areas. World hunger would not be solved by stopping space exploration, it's a result of many different political problems, it's not a simple issue.
  - saiya-jin 12y ago

by lbenes 12y ago

maroonblazer 12y ago

>"because fundamentalisms only flourishes in an environment of ignorance and poverty." Do you mean ignorance as in poorly-educated? Nearly all the 19 hijackers of 911 were quite well-educated. Or are you referring to ignorance rooted in a belief in myth and superstition as manifested in religion? How kindly do you think people are going to take to being told, if even implicitly - by "infidels" no less - that they're belief system has rendered them ignorant? For that matter non-muslims playing any role in the arab world is considered an abomination by fundamentalists. I agree that change needs to happen but am not convinced it can come from the West. It needs to come from within Islam and the Muslim community. They need their own Reformation.

notsony 12y ago
Reformation is unlikely to come from within the Islamic community. In the clip below, from Norway, English-speaking Muslims ridicule and dismiss the Western concepts of moderate and extremist Islam. Their rationale is that the same beliefs are shared by the majority. This should worry everyone. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZataEz_m73E https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZataEz_m73E
- stevenjohns 12y ago
  > Reformation is unlikely to come from within the Islamic community. I wrote a long response to this but I decided to delete it. Basically this is not very accurate, and familiarity with history of the Middle East and North Africa (including ideologies like Arab nationalism and Ba'athism, or figures like Gamal Abdel Naseer and Hafez al Assad) would show that it certainly can come from within the Islamic world-- primarily because the Islamic world are the prime targets and overwhelmingly the majority of the victims of these actions. > Their rationale is that the same beliefs are shared by the majority. Their rationale is also that the majority of Muslims are hypocrites and are not "real" Muslims (when compared to those who follow the extremists' perverse Wahabbi fiqh within the Sunni Hanbali maddhab) or else they would agree with them. Unless we haven't noticed, the prime victim of Islamic extremism is other Muslims, and the prime opposition towards Islamic extremism is other Muslims. To go even further, the primary enemy of ISIS is actually Al Qaeda (in the form of Jabhat al Nusra) and vice versa. When they say there is no moderate or extremist Muslim, it is because the moderate Muslim does not recognize the extremist as a Muslim, and the extremist does not recognize the moderate as a Muslim. Even the Muslim extremists do not recognize other Muslim extremists as Muslim if they do not pledge allegiance. There is a reason why these extremist folk are called "Takfiris"-- it literally means "those who accuse others of disbelief." Here [1] is a video between the Western-backed terrorists in Syria and ISIS on a two-way radio call. Pay close attention from about 40s, especially when the Western-backed terrorists ask the ISIS fighters why they do not attack Israel As an anecdote: In Iraq a fatwa was issued by Ayotallah Sistani to refer to ISIS as "Daesh al Murtad" ("ISIS who has left Islam") but it was eventually brought down to "Asa'ib daesh" ("the gangs of ISIS") so as to avoid the "moderates" receiving the takfiri labeling as it is considered inflammatory. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbY9uU3kQc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbY9uU3kQc0

saiya-jin 12y ago

"That money and our presence there hasn't worked" - I don't agree. It is valid if you are naive and believe US went around the world twice to spread goodwill and western values to those who despised them anyway, by blasting hundrets of thousands of civilians (and few armed guys along) to pieces. But, if you look at those adventures from economical perspective of those who have huge influence in US politics all the way to white house and can profit nicely from any war effort, there are no big mysteries. Or, just "follow the money" works nicely. - completely agree on that cash spending point. in fact, my personal opinion is that we shouldn't try to reach the stars/other planets until we solve our massive issues here, ie no person should die from hunger, all children should get proper education/health care, minimize polluting/raping our own ecosystem etc. You know, the basics of fabric of any sustainable advanced society that we sometimes claim to be/aspire to be. - multiculturalism has largely not worked, at least not for europe's immigration. the issue is lack of any proper integration, accepting european values etc. People here are well aware, and incidents like these will play nicely in hands of terrorists. Further polarization of society, meaning more jihad recruits, more attacks and so on. It doesn't matter that maybe 98% of muslims here are nice people that don't cause any issues (apart from that integration, but if I were living in muslim country, I wouldn't accept their values neither). US fares much better in this aspect.

gambiting 12y ago
>>my personal opinion is that we shouldn't try to reach the stars/other planets until we solve our massive issues here, ie no person should die from hunger, all children should get proper education/health care, minimize polluting/raping our own ecosystem etc. You know, the basics of fabric of any sustainable advanced society that we sometimes claim to be/aspire to be. So how do you suggest to achieve that? A person grows up and wants to go and study rocket science, and you come up and go "sorry kid, come back once kids stop starving in Nigeria"? You can't just assume that if we halt progress in one area then magically the production capacities will transfer to other areas. World hunger would not be solved by stopping space exploration, it's a result of many different political problems, it's not a simple issue.
- saiya-jin 12y ago