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Because unlike the color purple, the Islamic community of France is an oppressed underclass. If this was a bunch of racist stereotypes of blacks, would our answ

by rtpg 12y ago

Because unlike the color purple, the Islamic community of France is an oppressed underclass. If this was a bunch of racist stereotypes of blacks, would our answer be to continue to publish racist trash? These things can offend more than just extremists. Obviously this massacre is absolutely terrible, but the content of Charlie Hebdo regarding Islam was extremely offensive, and served mainly to increase the isolation of the French Muslim community

MichaelGG 12y ago
Hmm, yeah, if people were executed for putting on blackface, it seems a good protest might have people putting on blackface. The point being that even if you normally wouldn't be "offensive" you would to make it clear that offending people is far less important than executing them. I also like how these cartoons are extremely offensive, as if that has any bearing on anything. Perhaps people shouldn't invent rules that makes them so offended? Like that Onion article about "no one was killed over this image".
aswanson 12y ago
Please dont equate mockery of a set of beliefs with mockery and oppression of a set of people based on genetic traits. I guarantee the French Muslims have not gone through a fraction of what blacks have gone through in terms of outright physical violence and state-sanctioned oppression. If anything France, and Europe as a whole, seem more than welcoming to muslims, at least from an immigration and social safety net perspective. Belief systems from Christian to Muslim to atheism must be subject to public criticism and mockery in a free society without threat of violence. People who dont feel this way should be free to leave.
- deciplex 12y ago
  >Belief systems from Christian to Muslim to atheism must be subject to public criticism and mockery in a free society without threat of violence. People who dont feel this way should be free to leave. Should be made to leave. Accommodating murders, thugs, and people who give them aid and comfort, does not make for good immigration policy.
- sroerick 12y ago
  I think this connection is not as arbitrary as you make it out to me. The intersection between muslims and Arabs is pretty large. I'm not sure the same secular identity politics exists in the Middle East as exist in America. Beyond that, the Civil Rights movement in America had 3 feet in Islam. I think the comparison is an appropriate one.
  - aswanson 12y ago
    Orthodox Islam, to the extent that it was effective in the US Civil Rights movement in the 60s, had its start with Malcolm X and its end with Clarence 13x and his founding of the Five Percent Nation, which is a rejection of Islam at its most fundamental level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_13X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_13X It replaces the "Mystery Spook" Allah and the Prophet Muhammed with the individual himself "A.l.l.a.h" (arm, leg, leg, arm, head) which is an acronym of a human being. There is no god, other than the living person. This is nothing more than atheism with a healthy dose of Randian objectivism. I fail to see the "3 feet" you mention here.
- Normati 12y ago
  France is not a free society in the same way America is. French people are happy to live under many more restrictive laws but we don't often see it. For instance, Charlie Hebdo's staff could have gone to prison if they had published a cartoon mocking the holocaust. Some people's offense is treated as more valuable than others in France.
  - pascal_cuoq 12y ago
    In “America”, laws forbid people drink beer in public. Not old, forgotten laws: policemen use these everyday as reason to arrest and search people in the street. In fact, in recent weeks, did US courts not repeatedly find nothing illegal had happened when the police executed someone who was standing in the street not being a danger? France is not perfect but you need to get out more if you think “America”, as you call it, is better.
    - Normati 12y ago
      I was just thinking about freedom of speech. I don't deny America has a problem with police violence. It has a bigger problem with violence in general too. It is still quite bizarre that not being in France, I can safely say "The holocaust didn't happen" But a French person is at risk of having their online identity discovered, then imprisoned just for making a political claim like that. This is really quite scary.
- rtpg 12y ago
  You're right in that the oppression is not as systematic. I made the comparison to something universally recognised, but it was exaggerated. I am not arguing against freedom of speech, but I am arguing for not buying magazines that promote such damaging stereotypes (just like I recognise that far-right parties can exist , but will never donate a cent to them). The issue for me, is that as a society we trumpet freedom of religion, but to me it seems like this is only accepted so long as your skin is white to go along with it. The attacks on islam do translate to attacks on people from the Middle East. Most people assume that if you're from Turkey you're probably muslim (even if in name only). The firebombed kebab shop the day after that attack: nobody knows whether the guy was actually muslim, but it doesn't matter to the attackers because this is really a race problem, and not a religion problem.

by rtpg 12y ago

MichaelGG 12y ago

Hmm, yeah, if people were executed for putting on blackface, it seems a good protest might have people putting on blackface. The point being that even if you normally wouldn't be "offensive" you would to make it clear that offending people is far less important than executing them. I also like how these cartoons are extremely offensive, as if that has any bearing on anything. Perhaps people shouldn't invent rules that makes them so offended? Like that Onion article about "no one was killed over this image".

aswanson 12y ago

Please dont equate mockery of a set of beliefs with mockery and oppression of a set of people based on genetic traits. I guarantee the French Muslims have not gone through a fraction of what blacks have gone through in terms of outright physical violence and state-sanctioned oppression. If anything France, and Europe as a whole, seem more than welcoming to muslims, at least from an immigration and social safety net perspective. Belief systems from Christian to Muslim to atheism must be subject to public criticism and mockery in a free society without threat of violence. People who dont feel this way should be free to leave.

deciplex 12y ago
>Belief systems from Christian to Muslim to atheism must be subject to public criticism and mockery in a free society without threat of violence. People who dont feel this way should be free to leave. Should be made to leave. Accommodating murders, thugs, and people who give them aid and comfort, does not make for good immigration policy.
sroerick 12y ago
I think this connection is not as arbitrary as you make it out to me. The intersection between muslims and Arabs is pretty large. I'm not sure the same secular identity politics exists in the Middle East as exist in America. Beyond that, the Civil Rights movement in America had 3 feet in Islam. I think the comparison is an appropriate one.
- aswanson 12y ago
  Orthodox Islam, to the extent that it was effective in the US Civil Rights movement in the 60s, had its start with Malcolm X and its end with Clarence 13x and his founding of the Five Percent Nation, which is a rejection of Islam at its most fundamental level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_13X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_13X It replaces the "Mystery Spook" Allah and the Prophet Muhammed with the individual himself "A.l.l.a.h" (arm, leg, leg, arm, head) which is an acronym of a human being. There is no god, other than the living person. This is nothing more than atheism with a healthy dose of Randian objectivism. I fail to see the "3 feet" you mention here.
Normati 12y ago
France is not a free society in the same way America is. French people are happy to live under many more restrictive laws but we don't often see it. For instance, Charlie Hebdo's staff could have gone to prison if they had published a cartoon mocking the holocaust. Some people's offense is treated as more valuable than others in France.
- pascal_cuoq 12y ago
  In “America”, laws forbid people drink beer in public. Not old, forgotten laws: policemen use these everyday as reason to arrest and search people in the street. In fact, in recent weeks, did US courts not repeatedly find nothing illegal had happened when the police executed someone who was standing in the street not being a danger? France is not perfect but you need to get out more if you think “America”, as you call it, is better.
  - Normati 12y ago
    I was just thinking about freedom of speech. I don't deny America has a problem with police violence. It has a bigger problem with violence in general too. It is still quite bizarre that not being in France, I can safely say "The holocaust didn't happen" But a French person is at risk of having their online identity discovered, then imprisoned just for making a political claim like that. This is really quite scary.
rtpg 12y ago
You're right in that the oppression is not as systematic. I made the comparison to something universally recognised, but it was exaggerated. I am not arguing against freedom of speech, but I am arguing for not buying magazines that promote such damaging stereotypes (just like I recognise that far-right parties can exist , but will never donate a cent to them). The issue for me, is that as a society we trumpet freedom of religion, but to me it seems like this is only accepted so long as your skin is white to go along with it. The attacks on islam do translate to attacks on people from the Middle East. Most people assume that if you're from Turkey you're probably muslim (even if in name only). The firebombed kebab shop the day after that attack: nobody knows whether the guy was actually muslim, but it doesn't matter to the attackers because this is really a race problem, and not a religion problem.