5 ms·

"They're probably missing out on several tens of dollars." * "The large number of people pirating songs" Yes, they went too far, but for fucks sake, it is real

by sosborn 12y ago

"They're probably missing out on several tens of dollars." * "The large number of people pirating songs" Yes, they went too far, but for fucks sake, it is really hard to imagine that these acts hurt a company?

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
I sell doodads. You've never bought one from me. Can I claim that you've hurt me? After all, you've never bought any. (I can show you my bank account balance, I really am hurting). The sticking point, the part that will make it feel to you as if my statement above is non-sensical, is somehow you've managed to attach the idea that they're selling something to the idea that other people have a (very) similar something but haven't paid. So to you that feels like "theft". But it wasn't always this way. The way you feel has been cultivated, just in the last few decades. And though they've cultivated it for music and movies and video games, I haven't (bothered, been able to, had enough influence) to cultivate the idea that if you haven't bought doodads from me that you've stolen from me.
- sosborn 12y ago
  If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer and I have three choices. 1) buy your doodad. 2) acquire it without paying money. 3) go without using your doodad. As a business owner, which would you prefer I do? Would option 2 not result in a loss of potential revenue? Would it not be super-harmful if everyone who wanted to use your product chose option 2?
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
    > If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Certainly if I repair cars, you don't claim that I get to do all your car work and be paid for it, nor could I sue if you did it yourself. But this is what you're claiming with entertainment... Think about it. I might make the claim that if you know about how to fix an engine, it was only because I discovered those ideas first. Therefor, even if you fix the engine (or arrange little magnetic islands on a hard drive in a particular sequence), you're still stealing from me. If you fix the engine the same way I'd fix it, you're just copying my motions and actions. These are highly comparable, but most people now balk at the idea (even though such absurd restrictions have existed in various times and places throughout history). Copyright isn't some fundamental human right (time for the weenies to point out that the UN thinks it is). Its formulation was originally a practical matter, so now that it's become impractical it should be abolished or once more limited to reasonable terms.
    - sosborn 12y ago
      > But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Of course not. See option 3. Again, which option would you prefer I take if you are the business owner? Which would you prefer that I didn't take?
- mikeash 12y ago
  Let's say I stand in front of your doodad store (imagining you only sell it in a store, for whatever reason) with a megaphone, repeatedly giving an extremely convincing speech about why people shouldn't buy your doodads. Can you claim that I've hurt you then? Many of the people I talk to would never buy a doodad anyway. Those result in zero harm. Some of them were going to buy a doodad, were non convinced, and bought anyway. Those also result in zero harm. But some were going to buy a doodad and then decided not to. That's harm. Piracy is the same. Many pirates were never going to buy the thing anyway. Many people purchase anyway. But some non-zero number of people would have purchased but now don't.
- throwawaykf05 12y ago
  Strawman: by not buying doodads from you, I'm not getting the value provided by the doodads either. That is not the case with digital goods. Say you created those doodads using your time, efforts and resources. Your doodads provide people some value. People usually buy doodads as recompense for that value. But if someone "pirates" your doodads, it means they acquired the value without fairly compensating you. So you: invested time, effort and resources to provide value to others. The pirates: benefited from that value and gave nothing back. Is that not unfair? What if those pirates further shared your doodads with their friends (or, you know, random people on the Internet) further depriving you of people who should be paying you for the value your doodads provided. Now can you not claim that the pirates are hurting you? You may focus on the zero marginal cost of copying digital music and movies and video games. However, observe that the value is not in the bits you copy but the experiences they provide to your mind. If they are truly worth zero to you, I don't see why you should be wasting your time experiencing them in the first place. If I were to guess, you have not "cultivated that idea" because you've never created something that people found useful, something which you'd think you deserved compensation for, but which was taken without giving anything in return.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
    > Say you created those doodads using your time, efforts and resources. Your doodads provide people some value. People usually buy doodads as recompense for that value. But if someone "pirates" your doodads, it means they acquired the value without fairly compensating you. Like if they make their own doodad, after seeing mine? I'm not entitled to compensation for being the first to do something. A society that sets itself up such that people who do something first are entitled to become rent-seekers for all eternity is dysfunctional. > What if those pirates further shared your doodads with their friends That'd be awesome. Unless they did a half-assed job of the sharing. I reserve the right to beat them bloody if they release the music as 32k VBR mp3s. I may murder if they're wma format. No jury in the world could convict me. Copyright used to encourage the creation of more works that would enter the public domain in less than three decades. Now it's used to fund bribing Congress to get longer copyrights. > If I were to guess, you have not "cultivated that idea" because you've never created something that people found useful, Yeh. You'd like to believe that, because it's easier to see me as some filthy thief than as someone whose ideas might be correct. The former lets you just call me names and move on, the latter would mean changing your mind and thinking about issues like this critically. Someday I hope that people like myself strip you of all political influence and make this part of the world a better place. You can go live in Singapore with its thousand year copyright durations and felony download laws.

by sosborn 12y ago

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

I sell doodads. You've never bought one from me. Can I claim that you've hurt me? After all, you've never bought any. (I can show you my bank account balance, I really am hurting). The sticking point, the part that will make it feel to you as if my statement above is non-sensical, is somehow you've managed to attach the idea that they're selling something to the idea that other people have a (very) similar something but haven't paid. So to you that feels like "theft". But it wasn't always this way. The way you feel has been cultivated, just in the last few decades. And though they've cultivated it for music and movies and video games, I haven't (bothered, been able to, had enough influence) to cultivate the idea that if you haven't bought doodads from me that you've stolen from me.

sosborn 12y ago
If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer and I have three choices. 1) buy your doodad. 2) acquire it without paying money. 3) go without using your doodad. As a business owner, which would you prefer I do? Would option 2 not result in a loss of potential revenue? Would it not be super-harmful if everyone who wanted to use your product chose option 2?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  > If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Certainly if I repair cars, you don't claim that I get to do all your car work and be paid for it, nor could I sue if you did it yourself. But this is what you're claiming with entertainment... Think about it. I might make the claim that if you know about how to fix an engine, it was only because I discovered those ideas first. Therefor, even if you fix the engine (or arrange little magnetic islands on a hard drive in a particular sequence), you're still stealing from me. If you fix the engine the same way I'd fix it, you're just copying my motions and actions. These are highly comparable, but most people now balk at the idea (even though such absurd restrictions have existed in various times and places throughout history). Copyright isn't some fundamental human right (time for the weenies to point out that the UN thinks it is). Its formulation was originally a practical matter, so now that it's become impractical it should be abolished or once more limited to reasonable terms.
  - sosborn 12y ago
    > But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Of course not. See option 3. Again, which option would you prefer I take if you are the business owner? Which would you prefer that I didn't take?
mikeash 12y ago
Let's say I stand in front of your doodad store (imagining you only sell it in a store, for whatever reason) with a megaphone, repeatedly giving an extremely convincing speech about why people shouldn't buy your doodads. Can you claim that I've hurt you then? Many of the people I talk to would never buy a doodad anyway. Those result in zero harm. Some of them were going to buy a doodad, were non convinced, and bought anyway. Those also result in zero harm. But some were going to buy a doodad and then decided not to. That's harm. Piracy is the same. Many pirates were never going to buy the thing anyway. Many people purchase anyway. But some non-zero number of people would have purchased but now don't.
throwawaykf05 12y ago
Strawman: by not buying doodads from you, I'm not getting the value provided by the doodads either. That is not the case with digital goods. Say you created those doodads using your time, efforts and resources. Your doodads provide people some value. People usually buy doodads as recompense for that value. But if someone "pirates" your doodads, it means they acquired the value without fairly compensating you. So you: invested time, effort and resources to provide value to others. The pirates: benefited from that value and gave nothing back. Is that not unfair? What if those pirates further shared your doodads with their friends (or, you know, random people on the Internet) further depriving you of people who should be paying you for the value your doodads provided. Now can you not claim that the pirates are hurting you? You may focus on the zero marginal cost of copying digital music and movies and video games. However, observe that the value is not in the bits you copy but the experiences they provide to your mind. If they are truly worth zero to you, I don't see why you should be wasting your time experiencing them in the first place. If I were to guess, you have not "cultivated that idea" because you've never created something that people found useful, something which you'd think you deserved compensation for, but which was taken without giving anything in return.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  > Say you created those doodads using your time, efforts and resources. Your doodads provide people some value. People usually buy doodads as recompense for that value. But if someone "pirates" your doodads, it means they acquired the value without fairly compensating you. Like if they make their own doodad, after seeing mine? I'm not entitled to compensation for being the first to do something. A society that sets itself up such that people who do something first are entitled to become rent-seekers for all eternity is dysfunctional. > What if those pirates further shared your doodads with their friends That'd be awesome. Unless they did a half-assed job of the sharing. I reserve the right to beat them bloody if they release the music as 32k VBR mp3s. I may murder if they're wma format. No jury in the world could convict me. Copyright used to encourage the creation of more works that would enter the public domain in less than three decades. Now it's used to fund bribing Congress to get longer copyrights. > If I were to guess, you have not "cultivated that idea" because you've never created something that people found useful, Yeh. You'd like to believe that, because it's easier to see me as some filthy thief than as someone whose ideas might be correct. The former lets you just call me names and move on, the latter would mean changing your mind and thinking about issues like this critically. Someday I hope that people like myself strip you of all political influence and make this part of the world a better place. You can go live in Singapore with its thousand year copyright durations and felony download laws.