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> Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. I might concede that this is the case, but only if we first agree that this doesn't

> Right, but it does not mean that the record companies are out $0 either. I might concede that this is the case, but only if we first agree that this doesn't mean you get to choose some arbitrary number in the middle and pretend that this is the "average loss". I know of no economic science that can provide a reasonable number, either. You'd be lying if you claimed you knew of one. > They are probably missing out on at least several hundred dollars worth of revenue This would be the very extreme edge of the maximum. They're probably missing out on several tens of dollars. And for this, they've hijacked the criminal justice system with bribes to congresses and parliaments, extended copyright protection so much that it now lasts a duration best measured in centuries, bankrupted innocent people with million dollar judgements, and sent people to prison for what shouldn't even be misdemeanors. They want us to all pay, through our tax funding of the criminal justice system, for these minor theoretical losses. Why should I have sympathy for that? Games companies specifically have broken their own works so thoroughly that it's difficult or impossible to get games just a few decades old to run. This is stealing from the public domain. It'd be like burning down your apartment just before the lease runs out, to make sure the landlord doesn't get it back. Fuck them.

CJefferson 12y ago
As you say, it's very hard to know how much companies are out. I would guess it was at least $40, else why pay $40 for a flashcart? A new gateway (the only 3DS card I'm aware of) costs $80. People who buy 3DS flash carts never buy a game again (in my experience), mainly because new non-pirated games require upgrading the firmware, which they can't do if they want their flash carts to keep working (this may have been improved, I haven't looked in a while). Also because they 'paid for piracy' (unlike on PC), they (I believe) feel happier not paying for games in future.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  > I would guess it was at least $40, else why pay $40 for a flashcart? I will concede that this is reasonable for a lower boundary. However, it's not that simple. Human psychology being what it is, if he couldn't buy the $40 flashcart it's not certain that he would buy say, two $20 games that he ended up putting on that flash cart. Maybe instead he orders pizza. Being blocked from the flashcart alters decision paths that don't always lead back to video games or even entertainment in general. But with that said, again, I'll accept $40 as a rough lower boundary. > People who buy 3DS flash carts never buy a game again (in my experience), Anecdotal, of course, but this seems reasonable. I don't dispute it. In my own personal experience, people who start downloading movies never buy DVDs again. So not only do I agree, I think we can generalize it either to most entertainment, or all entertainment. > Also because they 'paid for piracy' (unlike on PC), they (I believe) feel happier not paying for games in future. Morally, they bought physical goods that employed other people and let those people earn a living. Additionally, those claiming to have been wronged here still earned millions and billions in profit. Who can fault them for feeling as if no bad outcomes occurred?
gambiting 12y ago
As someone who actually works in the game industry - I feel like making an emotional argument. If I write a game, it's released in stores, and then I see someone playing a pirated copy, how should I feel? Elated that they are playing it? Or am I allowed to be upset that they are playing my game without paying for it? And how is being unable to run games designed for a different system and different time stealing from public domain? Just because tape players are not common today doesn't mean that people who made tapes 20 years ago have somehow stolen from a public domain - you just have to get a tape player. If a game was written for Dos, then well, you have to get a dos system or an emulator. If a game was written for DirectX 7, how can you blame developers that it doesn't run on the latest DirectX 11 system, with the operating system 5 generations ahead? If you are a software developer - how could you predict and counteract this?
sosborn 12y ago
"They're probably missing out on several tens of dollars." * "The large number of people pirating songs" Yes, they went too far, but for fucks sake, it is really hard to imagine that these acts hurt a company?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
  I sell doodads. You've never bought one from me. Can I claim that you've hurt me? After all, you've never bought any. (I can show you my bank account balance, I really am hurting). The sticking point, the part that will make it feel to you as if my statement above is non-sensical, is somehow you've managed to attach the idea that they're selling something to the idea that other people have a (very) similar something but haven't paid. So to you that feels like "theft". But it wasn't always this way. The way you feel has been cultivated, just in the last few decades. And though they've cultivated it for music and movies and video games, I haven't (bothered, been able to, had enough influence) to cultivate the idea that if you haven't bought doodads from me that you've stolen from me.
  - sosborn 12y ago
    If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer and I have three choices. 1) buy your doodad. 2) acquire it without paying money. 3) go without using your doodad. As a business owner, which would you prefer I do? Would option 2 not result in a loss of potential revenue? Would it not be super-harmful if everyone who wanted to use your product chose option 2?
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
      > If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Certainly if I repair cars, you don't claim that I get to do all your car work and be paid for it, nor could I sue if you did it yourself. But this is what you're claiming with entertainment... Think about it. I might make the claim that if you know about how to fix an engine, it was only because I discovered those ideas first. Therefor, even if you fix the engine (or arrange little magnetic islands on a hard drive in a particular sequence), you're still stealing from me. If you fix the engine the same way I'd fix it, you're just copying my motions and actions. These are highly comparable, but most people now balk at the idea (even though such absurd restrictions have existed in various times and places throughout history). Copyright isn't some fundamental human right (time for the weenies to point out that the UN thinks it is). Its formulation was originally a practical matter, so now that it's become impractical it should be abolished or once more limited to reasonable terms.

CJefferson 12y ago

As you say, it's very hard to know how much companies are out. I would guess it was at least $40, else why pay $40 for a flashcart? A new gateway (the only 3DS card I'm aware of) costs $80. People who buy 3DS flash carts never buy a game again (in my experience), mainly because new non-pirated games require upgrading the firmware, which they can't do if they want their flash carts to keep working (this may have been improved, I haven't looked in a while). Also because they 'paid for piracy' (unlike on PC), they (I believe) feel happier not paying for games in future.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
> I would guess it was at least $40, else why pay $40 for a flashcart? I will concede that this is reasonable for a lower boundary. However, it's not that simple. Human psychology being what it is, if he couldn't buy the $40 flashcart it's not certain that he would buy say, two $20 games that he ended up putting on that flash cart. Maybe instead he orders pizza. Being blocked from the flashcart alters decision paths that don't always lead back to video games or even entertainment in general. But with that said, again, I'll accept $40 as a rough lower boundary. > People who buy 3DS flash carts never buy a game again (in my experience), Anecdotal, of course, but this seems reasonable. I don't dispute it. In my own personal experience, people who start downloading movies never buy DVDs again. So not only do I agree, I think we can generalize it either to most entertainment, or all entertainment. > Also because they 'paid for piracy' (unlike on PC), they (I believe) feel happier not paying for games in future. Morally, they bought physical goods that employed other people and let those people earn a living. Additionally, those claiming to have been wronged here still earned millions and billions in profit. Who can fault them for feeling as if no bad outcomes occurred?

gambiting 12y ago

As someone who actually works in the game industry - I feel like making an emotional argument. If I write a game, it's released in stores, and then I see someone playing a pirated copy, how should I feel? Elated that they are playing it? Or am I allowed to be upset that they are playing my game without paying for it? And how is being unable to run games designed for a different system and different time stealing from public domain? Just because tape players are not common today doesn't mean that people who made tapes 20 years ago have somehow stolen from a public domain - you just have to get a tape player. If a game was written for Dos, then well, you have to get a dos system or an emulator. If a game was written for DirectX 7, how can you blame developers that it doesn't run on the latest DirectX 11 system, with the operating system 5 generations ahead? If you are a software developer - how could you predict and counteract this?

sosborn 12y ago

"They're probably missing out on several tens of dollars." * "The large number of people pirating songs" Yes, they went too far, but for fucks sake, it is really hard to imagine that these acts hurt a company?

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
I sell doodads. You've never bought one from me. Can I claim that you've hurt me? After all, you've never bought any. (I can show you my bank account balance, I really am hurting). The sticking point, the part that will make it feel to you as if my statement above is non-sensical, is somehow you've managed to attach the idea that they're selling something to the idea that other people have a (very) similar something but haven't paid. So to you that feels like "theft". But it wasn't always this way. The way you feel has been cultivated, just in the last few decades. And though they've cultivated it for music and movies and video games, I haven't (bothered, been able to, had enough influence) to cultivate the idea that if you haven't bought doodads from me that you've stolen from me.
- sosborn 12y ago
  If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer and I have three choices. 1) buy your doodad. 2) acquire it without paying money. 3) go without using your doodad. As a business owner, which would you prefer I do? Would option 2 not result in a loss of potential revenue? Would it not be super-harmful if everyone who wanted to use your product chose option 2?
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
    > If I really want or need to acquire your doodad then I am a potential customer But are you a promised customer, one that I own as some sort of cow to be milked when I see fit? Certainly if I repair cars, you don't claim that I get to do all your car work and be paid for it, nor could I sue if you did it yourself. But this is what you're claiming with entertainment... Think about it. I might make the claim that if you know about how to fix an engine, it was only because I discovered those ideas first. Therefor, even if you fix the engine (or arrange little magnetic islands on a hard drive in a particular sequence), you're still stealing from me. If you fix the engine the same way I'd fix it, you're just copying my motions and actions. These are highly comparable, but most people now balk at the idea (even though such absurd restrictions have existed in various times and places throughout history). Copyright isn't some fundamental human right (time for the weenies to point out that the UN thinks it is). Its formulation was originally a practical matter, so now that it's become impractical it should be abolished or once more limited to reasonable terms.