4 ms·

Argh. Not a very useful article. Start with an observation: "Everyone hates C++, and yet it is really widely used. That's odd." Next, 10 paragraphs of people ha

Argh. Not a very useful article. Start with an observation: "Everyone hates C++, and yet it is really widely used. That's odd." Next, 10 paragraphs of people hating on C++. End with: actually wait, no ending.

jacquesm 17y ago
Well, the 'everyone' he is talking about are some of the most respected people in the computer world, that should count for something. Also, they make fairly specific criticisms, and they have a track record of being right about such things. Java seems to be the C++ replacement of the future, with C# pulling the other way.
- slpsys 17y ago
  "with C# pulling the other way" Care to elaborate (I'm legitimately unsure what you mean, not being snarky)?
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    I think that C# is an attempt at creating an alternative for enterprise level programming to Java, basically .net and C# are an answer to the whole Java ecosystem. They're competing for the same space, so a business that wants to implement some functionality from scratch basically has these two solutions to choose from. In the 'web' domain there are many many more choices, but for places like banks and such that were first dominated by COBOL, then reluctantly moved to C or C++, for the most part they are either looking at Java or C#.
    - slpsys 17y ago
      A-ha, yeah. I read that originally as Java and C# pulling in opposite directions in a fundamental way, not as a mind-/market-share sense
- dtf 17y ago
  Well, the 'everyone' he is talking about are some of the most respected people in the computer world, that should count for something. And while they're busy bitching and hating and pontificating, humble unknowns are getting things done and making the world a better place. C++ is to systems programming what PHP is to web programming: the loyal packhorse that the A-list wouldn't be seen dead on.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    That is very true. PHP, Python and perl are rarely seen at corporations that existed before the web came around. Their whole IT department is set up around a different kind of environment. I think this is in part why the web is so disruptive, because it enables all these upstarts using very light and nimble stuff to challenge the big and established companies directly. You can pretty much tell what is enterprise stuff and what is 'quick & dirty but does the job' by comparing hourly rates for programmers. It also has everything to do with the length of time before someone can be productive in a new environment. If that length of time is very short then there is not a very high barrier, which tends to create a lot of 'wannabe' programmers in that language. By raising the bar you only end up with people that are willing to invest a large amount of time in a platform, that tends to favour people that get paid for their work, which in turn is found mostly in enterprise locations.
    - jrockway 17y ago
      PHP, Python and perl are rarely seen at corporations that existed before the web came around. Their whole IT department is set up around a different kind of environment. Not sure if this is true in general. I work at a bank. We use a lot of Perl. Banks existed long before "the web", and our Perl stuff is not a web application either. All the internal web apps are Java. It is kind of weird, actually -- Java for stuff like the HR apps, and Perl for the stuff that makes us money. (If it were my decision, I would use Perl for the web apps and Haskell for the algorithmic stuff... but it's not.)
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        > We use a lot of Perl. That's interesting! That's the last thing I would expect from a bank actually, wonder how common that is. But then again, is there even an 'enterprise scripting language' ? > All the internal web apps are Java. That's what I would expect. Sun really did some good marketing in that sphere.
- aboodman 17y ago
  The point I was trying to make wasn't about C++, it was that the article starts with a question it never answers. It would be a more honest opening to just say "lots of smart people hate C++", and then proceeded with the examples. Instead, it pretends like it is going to answer the question of why it is so popular in spite of being widely reviled, but then never touches on that. edit: grammar

jacquesm 17y ago

Well, the 'everyone' he is talking about are some of the most respected people in the computer world, that should count for something. Also, they make fairly specific criticisms, and they have a track record of being right about such things. Java seems to be the C++ replacement of the future, with C# pulling the other way.

slpsys 17y ago
"with C# pulling the other way" Care to elaborate (I'm legitimately unsure what you mean, not being snarky)?
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I think that C# is an attempt at creating an alternative for enterprise level programming to Java, basically .net and C# are an answer to the whole Java ecosystem. They're competing for the same space, so a business that wants to implement some functionality from scratch basically has these two solutions to choose from. In the 'web' domain there are many many more choices, but for places like banks and such that were first dominated by COBOL, then reluctantly moved to C or C++, for the most part they are either looking at Java or C#.
  - slpsys 17y ago
    A-ha, yeah. I read that originally as Java and C# pulling in opposite directions in a fundamental way, not as a mind-/market-share sense
dtf 17y ago
Well, the 'everyone' he is talking about are some of the most respected people in the computer world, that should count for something. And while they're busy bitching and hating and pontificating, humble unknowns are getting things done and making the world a better place. C++ is to systems programming what PHP is to web programming: the loyal packhorse that the A-list wouldn't be seen dead on.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  That is very true. PHP, Python and perl are rarely seen at corporations that existed before the web came around. Their whole IT department is set up around a different kind of environment. I think this is in part why the web is so disruptive, because it enables all these upstarts using very light and nimble stuff to challenge the big and established companies directly. You can pretty much tell what is enterprise stuff and what is 'quick & dirty but does the job' by comparing hourly rates for programmers. It also has everything to do with the length of time before someone can be productive in a new environment. If that length of time is very short then there is not a very high barrier, which tends to create a lot of 'wannabe' programmers in that language. By raising the bar you only end up with people that are willing to invest a large amount of time in a platform, that tends to favour people that get paid for their work, which in turn is found mostly in enterprise locations.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    PHP, Python and perl are rarely seen at corporations that existed before the web came around. Their whole IT department is set up around a different kind of environment. Not sure if this is true in general. I work at a bank. We use a lot of Perl. Banks existed long before "the web", and our Perl stuff is not a web application either. All the internal web apps are Java. It is kind of weird, actually -- Java for stuff like the HR apps, and Perl for the stuff that makes us money. (If it were my decision, I would use Perl for the web apps and Haskell for the algorithmic stuff... but it's not.)
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      > We use a lot of Perl. That's interesting! That's the last thing I would expect from a bank actually, wonder how common that is. But then again, is there even an 'enterprise scripting language' ? > All the internal web apps are Java. That's what I would expect. Sun really did some good marketing in that sphere.
aboodman 17y ago
The point I was trying to make wasn't about C++, it was that the article starts with a question it never answers. It would be a more honest opening to just say "lots of smart people hate C++", and then proceeded with the examples. Instead, it pretends like it is going to answer the question of why it is so popular in spite of being widely reviled, but then never touches on that. edit: grammar