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If Wieseltier's aim was to provide an ex post facto justification of what went down at the New Republic, he's certainly nailed it. The strawmen he constructs wi

If Wieseltier's aim was to provide an ex post facto justification of what went down at the New Republic, he's certainly nailed it. The strawmen he constructs without a whit of evidence wouldn't pass freshman comp; that he's accorded greater privilege demonstrates just how high the shit must have been piled at The New Republic's stables. What's interesting is we're starting to see the outlines of the narrative that will define the intellectual critique of silicon valley, and it's an old chestnut. It's the line that silicon valley is all machine and no soul -- a group of folks interested in success only without any capability for reflection, intuition, emotion. That in the quest to ask 'does it work,' we fail to ask 'should it work?' Robots and nerds, in essence. It's a line that can be traced back to Doug Bowman's '41 shades of blue' post[0] -- itself beginning to define the narrative of Google (and Marissa in particular) as pencil-necked spreadsheet jockeys who wouldn't know good taste if it hit them over the head. This narrative is, frankly, bullshit. Anybody who's worked on any sort of technology product knows the limits of data in decision-making -- I have yet to see any place where gut feel didn't radically dictate the shape and vision of every company. Similarly, to argue that the Internet is anything other than the most effective device for the production of the same humanistic, intellectual material that Wieseltier bemoans the loss of is to demonstrate an utter unfamiliarity with the internet and how it works. No, what Wieseltier bemoans is one thing and one thing only: That the means of distribution are no longer so dominated that he automatically, uncritically earns a right to them. The world doesn't need that any longer and we are the better for it. [0] http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html

williamcotton 12y ago
Ah, the old "gatekeeper" argument. Did you come up with this while reading "The Top 8 Reasons Why Silicon Valley Should Never Be Criticized" on Buzzfeed?
- hammerzeit 12y ago
  There are many, many critiques of silicon valley that are relevant and problematic and need to be heard and engaged with more. This is absolutely not one of them.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    Could you please recommend one of the others?
    - hammerzeit 12y ago
      Evgevny Morozov is a great place to start; he can go a little off the rails but much of his critiques of technological determinism are well-located. I don't fully subscribe to all of Model View Culture's political aims but their arguments need to be engaged with. In a different direction, what the Long Now foundation does with trying to reframe our focuses on the ultra-long-term is powerful. Outside of that, I see much (maybe too much of it) happening on twitter, not enough written out. Definitely a challenge to improve.
      - ser_tyrion 12y ago
        Thanks for the recommendation: Evgeny Morozov - Against Solutionism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhU0hRng-eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhU0hRng-eE
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    I think he makes some very good points about an obsession with objective quantities over more subjective analysis of qualities. Especially when it comes to literary works, art, and discussions of politics and economics. I've worked in tech for the last decade so I know from first hand experience that there is plenty of subjectivity in the decision making and design processes. But at the same time there's an attitude that "if it sells, it's good". Sometimes when I'm in meetings it seems like were selling lowest-common-denominator products on after hours television. Basically just trying to come up with scams instead of trying to build real value. Furthermore, thinking that web pages and software are the best approaches to "solving the world's problems" definitely lends towards a digital and quantified solution. From what I've heard at The New Republic they wanted to start using the same sort of metrics that a company like Bleacher Report (which I was the first engineer at) might use. There's world of a difference between stories about 3rd tier college football teams and the history of intellectual criticism that made The New Republic what it was.
williamcotton 12y ago
Similarly, to argue that the Internet is anything other than the most effective device for the production of the same humanistic, intellectual material that Wieseltier bemoans the loss of is to demonstrate an utter unfamiliarity with the internet and how it works. Well I'm very familiar with how the Internet works and I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement so, to use a "logical fallacy" against you, I believe you're making an "argument to authority". BTW, logical fallacies are a rhetorical device that attempt to deny the subjective experience in it's entirety by presuming that all interactions can be reduced to a set of objective axioms. I'm only mentioning this because you leaped to the old "strawman" device in your second sentence, and that you seem to have the generally pleasant demeanor of an esteemed Student of Lesswrong, and that this style of argument and the worldview that it presupposes are being directly addressed by the author of the article. Can you explain how the Internet is so effective at producing "humanistic, intellectual material"? From my perspective knowing a number of writers, musicians and artists, it seems that professional industries are suffering big time. The network of agents, managers, publicists, production and support staff have steadily been disappearing because the revenue streams that supported them are drying up. This means that artists are having to take up all this slack instead of just focusing on their work. Obviously the work suffers. I'm sure that there will be a solution but in the meantime things are pretty shit. It takes big and complex systems quite some time to reorganize. Get ready for an argument to authority here: Maybe you're so ignorant to humanistic and intellectual pursuits that you can't see what is going on?
- hammerzeit 12y ago
  I'm sure there's a point you're making here, but I'm not interested in finding it among all the insults you're slinging my way. Chill out, dude.
  - williamcotton 12y ago
    without a whit of evidence wouldn't pass freshman comp that he's accorded greater privilege demonstrates just how high the shit must have been piled at The New Republic's stables. This narrative is, frankly, bullshit. Hey buddy, if you wanna have chilled out conversation you might want to take a look at how your own approach might affect how things progress.

williamcotton 12y ago

Ah, the old "gatekeeper" argument. Did you come up with this while reading "The Top 8 Reasons Why Silicon Valley Should Never Be Criticized" on Buzzfeed?

hammerzeit 12y ago
There are many, many critiques of silicon valley that are relevant and problematic and need to be heard and engaged with more. This is absolutely not one of them.
- walterbell 12y ago
  Could you please recommend one of the others?
  - hammerzeit 12y ago
    Evgevny Morozov is a great place to start; he can go a little off the rails but much of his critiques of technological determinism are well-located. I don't fully subscribe to all of Model View Culture's political aims but their arguments need to be engaged with. In a different direction, what the Long Now foundation does with trying to reframe our focuses on the ultra-long-term is powerful. Outside of that, I see much (maybe too much of it) happening on twitter, not enough written out. Definitely a challenge to improve.
    - ser_tyrion 12y ago
      Thanks for the recommendation: Evgeny Morozov - Against Solutionism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhU0hRng-eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhU0hRng-eE
- williamcotton 12y ago
  I think he makes some very good points about an obsession with objective quantities over more subjective analysis of qualities. Especially when it comes to literary works, art, and discussions of politics and economics. I've worked in tech for the last decade so I know from first hand experience that there is plenty of subjectivity in the decision making and design processes. But at the same time there's an attitude that "if it sells, it's good". Sometimes when I'm in meetings it seems like were selling lowest-common-denominator products on after hours television. Basically just trying to come up with scams instead of trying to build real value. Furthermore, thinking that web pages and software are the best approaches to "solving the world's problems" definitely lends towards a digital and quantified solution. From what I've heard at The New Republic they wanted to start using the same sort of metrics that a company like Bleacher Report (which I was the first engineer at) might use. There's world of a difference between stories about 3rd tier college football teams and the history of intellectual criticism that made The New Republic what it was.

williamcotton 12y ago

Similarly, to argue that the Internet is anything other than the most effective device for the production of the same humanistic, intellectual material that Wieseltier bemoans the loss of is to demonstrate an utter unfamiliarity with the internet and how it works. Well I'm very familiar with how the Internet works and I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement so, to use a "logical fallacy" against you, I believe you're making an "argument to authority". BTW, logical fallacies are a rhetorical device that attempt to deny the subjective experience in it's entirety by presuming that all interactions can be reduced to a set of objective axioms. I'm only mentioning this because you leaped to the old "strawman" device in your second sentence, and that you seem to have the generally pleasant demeanor of an esteemed Student of Lesswrong, and that this style of argument and the worldview that it presupposes are being directly addressed by the author of the article. Can you explain how the Internet is so effective at producing "humanistic, intellectual material"? From my perspective knowing a number of writers, musicians and artists, it seems that professional industries are suffering big time. The network of agents, managers, publicists, production and support staff have steadily been disappearing because the revenue streams that supported them are drying up. This means that artists are having to take up all this slack instead of just focusing on their work. Obviously the work suffers. I'm sure that there will be a solution but in the meantime things are pretty shit. It takes big and complex systems quite some time to reorganize. Get ready for an argument to authority here: Maybe you're so ignorant to humanistic and intellectual pursuits that you can't see what is going on?

hammerzeit 12y ago
I'm sure there's a point you're making here, but I'm not interested in finding it among all the insults you're slinging my way. Chill out, dude.
- williamcotton 12y ago
  without a whit of evidence wouldn't pass freshman comp that he's accorded greater privilege demonstrates just how high the shit must have been piled at The New Republic's stables. This narrative is, frankly, bullshit. Hey buddy, if you wanna have chilled out conversation you might want to take a look at how your own approach might affect how things progress.