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I want to believe. But, there's such a history of deceit from our government, when there is a political motivation. I honestly don't understand why they'd be ly

I want to believe. But, there's such a history of deceit from our government, when there is a political motivation. I honestly don't understand why they'd be lying in this case...but, well, Iraq and years of torture at Guantanamo didn't really make sense to me, either. I don't think there is anyone gunning for war with North Korea (well, Northrup Grumman and Halliburton probably are, but I don't believe our state is entirely owned by the defense industry anymore, as it was during the Bush years). So, what's the motivation, if the FBI is misleading people? The thing is, I'm entirely willing to believe North Korea would like to have this kind of capability, and if they do have this kind of capability (which they might), I'm entirely willing to believe that they would use it broadly and aggressively. North Korea is led by angry, crazy, people. But, the early communication about the attack does not match that of a nation state, and there's no reason for them to have tried to pretend to be a random blackmail organization that I can imagine. In short, an IP is not a smoking gun. I worry that the FBI is taking advantage of people's lack of understanding of technology in order to push a story that is politically convenient, but factually shaky. I mean, I hope they aren't intentionally misleading people, I just don't necessarily trust that they wouldn't if there were motivation to do otherwise.

zachrose 12y ago
This is firmly in conspiracy theory territory, but didn't the U.S. government accuse North Korea on the exact same day (December 17, 2014) that Obama announced a thaw with Cuba?
- headShrinker 12y ago
  We were in the misted of a deep conversation on US torture and all of the sudden, 3.2.1 it's gone. Sony gets hacked.
Rooster61 12y ago
I don't think the motive would be to start a war with DPRK. What I am afraid of is the use of this incident as "evidence" that our nation needs more "cybersecurity". This could help pass legislation previously blocked by congress due to insufficient evidence. There isn't much of a leap from declaring war on terrorism to declaring war on cyberterrorism, and we all know how that went. I know my tin foil hat is showing, but it's a creepy possibility nonetheless, and is in no way distant from Washington's past antics.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  That does make more sense, and is in line with past behavior of the Obama administration (prosecuting and imprisoning whistleblowers at a rate unprecedented in American politics).
- shillster 12y ago
  Tin foil hat or wool over your eyes... Its one or the other.
  - knd775 12y ago
    Eh, not really.
NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
> I honestly don't understand why they'd be lying in this case Foreign policy shenanigans. They claim North Korea is attacking our economy, and the next time they have to sit down with the crazy fucks at a table with the Chinese and Russians, maybe they don't have to make as many concessions. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just that it was plausible.
gizmo686 12y ago
One motivation would be to look like they have the capacity to do things such as attribute cyber attacks. If they know that no one can prove them wrong, they may think that accusing North Korea with "classified evidence" looks more impressive then saying that they do not know, or are not confident about, who did it. North Korea makes a nice target to blame.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  That's a possibility, though it seems somewhat weak to me. I've read the theory in a few places, that Sony and the media were demanding answers, and so the administration gave them one. Conveniently, I guess, it is one that they assumed would not be believed whether they denied it or not (because who believes anything said by the North Korean government?). I just don't know that Sony and the media industry carries so much weight that they can actually sway our government to make shit up. And, was a pleasant fiction even what they actually wanted? I guess George Clooney wanted it. And, I guess Sony wanted to be able to say, "See, it was a nation-state that did this terrible thing, not our horrendous security practices." So, maybe it is this simple. And, others have mentioned reasonable theories about what the administration could get out of it being North Korea: Concessions from NK allies, the ability to ratchet up cybersecurity expenditures (as another arm of the military industrial complex), and redirection of attention from other issues. If the latter was the goal, it has certainly been effective. We're all talking about it, and many of us don't even believe them. So, it might not even matter if we believe the story, as long as we're not paying attention to whatever else they're up to. I gotta get a new hat.
  - gizmo686 12y ago
    The theory I described is not that the Sony/the media pressured the FBI to blame someone, but rather that the FBI saw a high-profile cyber attack and internally decided that it wanted to project power by pretending that it can solve this type of case. Or perhaps an individual in the FBI running the investigation wanted to project confidence to his superiors, and made a public statement. At which point the FBI felt that it could not backtrack and decided to double down on its confidence. Or maybe there was a filing error where a low level secretary checked "North Korea, definite" instead of "Uncertain" on the paperwork, and the FBI is again doubling down on its original public claim.
AdeptusAquinas 12y ago
Another explanation is that Sony Pictures asked them (your gov) to. Helps stop lawsuits over their poor security, might even result in some government funding to help them recover. And Sony can repay with campaign funds or what have you.
joshstrange 12y ago
> I honestly don't understand why they'd be lying in this case If they already wanted to slap NK with more sanctions this gave them an easy way to do it. Some high ranking US/FBI official: "Let's just say NK attacked us, no one can prove it, no one will listen to NK if they dispute it, AND it looks like a win for US/FBI out-hacking the hackers. After all can't we all agree NK is bad so what if we lie about this hack we are serving the GREATER GOOD by doing so..."
thaumaturgy 12y ago
It could be used to improve the U.S. position in political negotiations with China.

zachrose 12y ago

This is firmly in conspiracy theory territory, but didn't the U.S. government accuse North Korea on the exact same day (December 17, 2014) that Obama announced a thaw with Cuba?

headShrinker 12y ago
We were in the misted of a deep conversation on US torture and all of the sudden, 3.2.1 it's gone. Sony gets hacked.

Rooster61 12y ago

I don't think the motive would be to start a war with DPRK. What I am afraid of is the use of this incident as "evidence" that our nation needs more "cybersecurity". This could help pass legislation previously blocked by congress due to insufficient evidence. There isn't much of a leap from declaring war on terrorism to declaring war on cyberterrorism, and we all know how that went. I know my tin foil hat is showing, but it's a creepy possibility nonetheless, and is in no way distant from Washington's past antics.

SwellJoe 12y ago
That does make more sense, and is in line with past behavior of the Obama administration (prosecuting and imprisoning whistleblowers at a rate unprecedented in American politics).
shillster 12y ago
Tin foil hat or wool over your eyes... Its one or the other.
- knd775 12y ago
  Eh, not really.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

> I honestly don't understand why they'd be lying in this case Foreign policy shenanigans. They claim North Korea is attacking our economy, and the next time they have to sit down with the crazy fucks at a table with the Chinese and Russians, maybe they don't have to make as many concessions. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, just that it was plausible.

gizmo686 12y ago

One motivation would be to look like they have the capacity to do things such as attribute cyber attacks. If they know that no one can prove them wrong, they may think that accusing North Korea with "classified evidence" looks more impressive then saying that they do not know, or are not confident about, who did it. North Korea makes a nice target to blame.

SwellJoe 12y ago
That's a possibility, though it seems somewhat weak to me. I've read the theory in a few places, that Sony and the media were demanding answers, and so the administration gave them one. Conveniently, I guess, it is one that they assumed would not be believed whether they denied it or not (because who believes anything said by the North Korean government?). I just don't know that Sony and the media industry carries so much weight that they can actually sway our government to make shit up. And, was a pleasant fiction even what they actually wanted? I guess George Clooney wanted it. And, I guess Sony wanted to be able to say, "See, it was a nation-state that did this terrible thing, not our horrendous security practices." So, maybe it is this simple. And, others have mentioned reasonable theories about what the administration could get out of it being North Korea: Concessions from NK allies, the ability to ratchet up cybersecurity expenditures (as another arm of the military industrial complex), and redirection of attention from other issues. If the latter was the goal, it has certainly been effective. We're all talking about it, and many of us don't even believe them. So, it might not even matter if we believe the story, as long as we're not paying attention to whatever else they're up to. I gotta get a new hat.
- gizmo686 12y ago
  The theory I described is not that the Sony/the media pressured the FBI to blame someone, but rather that the FBI saw a high-profile cyber attack and internally decided that it wanted to project power by pretending that it can solve this type of case. Or perhaps an individual in the FBI running the investigation wanted to project confidence to his superiors, and made a public statement. At which point the FBI felt that it could not backtrack and decided to double down on its confidence. Or maybe there was a filing error where a low level secretary checked "North Korea, definite" instead of "Uncertain" on the paperwork, and the FBI is again doubling down on its original public claim.

AdeptusAquinas 12y ago

Another explanation is that Sony Pictures asked them (your gov) to. Helps stop lawsuits over their poor security, might even result in some government funding to help them recover. And Sony can repay with campaign funds or what have you.

joshstrange 12y ago

> I honestly don't understand why they'd be lying in this case If they already wanted to slap NK with more sanctions this gave them an easy way to do it. Some high ranking US/FBI official: "Let's just say NK attacked us, no one can prove it, no one will listen to NK if they dispute it, AND it looks like a win for US/FBI out-hacking the hackers. After all can't we all agree NK is bad so what if we lie about this hack we are serving the GREATER GOOD by doing so..."

thaumaturgy 12y ago

It could be used to improve the U.S. position in political negotiations with China.