5 ms·

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these i

by mercer 12y ago

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they do.

pierrec 12y ago
Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.
- mercer 12y ago
  I've been involved with some projects involving muslim cultural centers here, and I've spent a large part of my life in a country that was largely muslim. While I have many issues with Islam, and while I see how predominantly secular Western (European?) culture clashes with many of it's values, I found the experience of 'muslim culture' (which I do realize is not homogenous) almost uniformly enriching. I have a number of friends who have spent a lot of time in the Middle-East, and they feel the same way. It frustrates me to see the non-specific, general anger against muslims in my country, and how shrewd right-wing politicians use this for support. I hope that I won't have to show support to both sides against extremism, but I fear the worst. This situation really scares me, as it was not too long ago that one of our prominent right-wing politicians (Geert Wilders) exclaimed 'do we want more or less moroccans', followed by a chanting of 'less' by his supporters.
- vixen99 12y ago
  Perhaps this is the reason and I can't understand what the problem is myself. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-werent-moderate-muslims/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...
  - meapix 12y ago
    The christianity's history is not clean either.
sg47 12y ago
Muslims speaking up about this will not be enough. If they really condemn this, they should post these cartoons on their Facebook walls, newspapers, etc. That's the only way to show where they stand.
- mercer 12y ago
  I disagree. It's one thing to condemn violence perpetrated in the name of your faith. It's quite another to post cartoons that openly blaspheme it. Failing to see the difference between the two and posing it as a black or white issue only feeds fundamentalism. As much as I applaud freedom of expression above all else, I do not expect everyone to express this in the same manner, and I do not condemn those who take issue with, to them, blasphemous cartoons without proposing violence as a solution.
coldtea 12y ago
>My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. Shouldn't your heard sink for the victims first? Looks like you have a pre-defined ideology ("muslim communities are OK always and a good fit for our society") and when faced when a counter fact ("under some circumstances like today, people of that faith can be wrong/dangerous") you try to ignore it. Not saying that muslim communities are bad in general, but being open in what problematic spots they can exhibit (e.g. opression towards their women, they sometimes harbor extremists like that, etc) is more helpful than trying to absolve them with apriori ideas. Truth can also be a common ground with those not wanting the muslims in Holland. E.g. you might hate their racist propaganda and lies, but you both can agree to some specific problems and can try to work out solutions. Else you have two camps, the racists and those that thing everybody is always rosy, and society never solves its issues, and can never integrate other communities.
- mercer 12y ago
  I think you read too much into my words. I felt terrible for the victims too, but I didn't feel that mentioning this would have much value. I completely agree with you, and as I might have mentioned in another comment, my experiences living among muslims has definitely not left me with only positive impressions. Reality is not so simple. I merely wanted to emphasize my fear that this situation is a lot of fuel on the fire in those who oversimplify against muslims, and I felt that this was worth mentioning.

by mercer 12y ago

pierrec 12y ago

Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.

mercer 12y ago
I've been involved with some projects involving muslim cultural centers here, and I've spent a large part of my life in a country that was largely muslim. While I have many issues with Islam, and while I see how predominantly secular Western (European?) culture clashes with many of it's values, I found the experience of 'muslim culture' (which I do realize is not homogenous) almost uniformly enriching. I have a number of friends who have spent a lot of time in the Middle-East, and they feel the same way. It frustrates me to see the non-specific, general anger against muslims in my country, and how shrewd right-wing politicians use this for support. I hope that I won't have to show support to both sides against extremism, but I fear the worst. This situation really scares me, as it was not too long ago that one of our prominent right-wing politicians (Geert Wilders) exclaimed 'do we want more or less moroccans', followed by a chanting of 'less' by his supporters.
vixen99 12y ago
Perhaps this is the reason and I can't understand what the problem is myself. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-werent-moderate-muslims/ http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...
- meapix 12y ago
  The christianity's history is not clean either.

sg47 12y ago

Muslims speaking up about this will not be enough. If they really condemn this, they should post these cartoons on their Facebook walls, newspapers, etc. That's the only way to show where they stand.

mercer 12y ago
I disagree. It's one thing to condemn violence perpetrated in the name of your faith. It's quite another to post cartoons that openly blaspheme it. Failing to see the difference between the two and posing it as a black or white issue only feeds fundamentalism. As much as I applaud freedom of expression above all else, I do not expect everyone to express this in the same manner, and I do not condemn those who take issue with, to them, blasphemous cartoons without proposing violence as a solution.

coldtea 12y ago

>My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. Shouldn't your heard sink for the victims first? Looks like you have a pre-defined ideology ("muslim communities are OK always and a good fit for our society") and when faced when a counter fact ("under some circumstances like today, people of that faith can be wrong/dangerous") you try to ignore it. Not saying that muslim communities are bad in general, but being open in what problematic spots they can exhibit (e.g. opression towards their women, they sometimes harbor extremists like that, etc) is more helpful than trying to absolve them with apriori ideas. Truth can also be a common ground with those not wanting the muslims in Holland. E.g. you might hate their racist propaganda and lies, but you both can agree to some specific problems and can try to work out solutions. Else you have two camps, the racists and those that thing everybody is always rosy, and society never solves its issues, and can never integrate other communities.

mercer 12y ago
I think you read too much into my words. I felt terrible for the victims too, but I didn't feel that mentioning this would have much value. I completely agree with you, and as I might have mentioned in another comment, my experiences living among muslims has definitely not left me with only positive impressions. Reality is not so simple. I merely wanted to emphasize my fear that this situation is a lot of fuel on the fire in those who oversimplify against muslims, and I felt that this was worth mentioning.