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But what about employees that aren't assholes per se (in the sense that they are evil or egocentric), but just socially awkward? To give one example: A intelle

by wolfgke 12y ago

But what about employees that aren't assholes per se (in the sense that they are evil or egocentric), but just socially awkward? To give one example: A intellectually brillant employee wants to explain some complicated programming or math concepts so that the other people at the company can become better - a very noble plan. But because of their social inaptness this is considered to be rude and arrogant by the other team members.

ivraatiems 12y ago
I have found that often (but not always), individuals who claim "awkwardness" or hide behind a label of awkwardness to avoid criticism for misbehavior are, in fact, assholes (as this article would seem to define them). People who are truly awkward don't go around telling others how awkward they are (close friends/partners/family excepted). The difference is easy to suss out: approach the person in question, say "hey, I think behavior X is causing an issue between us, can we work on it?" and wait. If they agree to try and then actually do(even if they don't succeed), they're not an asshole. If they make excuses, or agree to change but make no visible effort, they are.
- philh 12y ago
  wolfgke was talking about people who are awkward, not people who label themselves awkward.
  - ivraatiems 12y ago
    Okay - but as far as I can see, the same rule applies. I guess my bigger issue here is this feeling I'm getting from this discussion that we should be making excuses for others on the basis of their intellect or our presumptions about their behavior.
iagooar 12y ago
I actually worked with a guy like this. He was a very intelligent, almost brilliant programmer at a very young age. But as brilliant as he was, he also was pretty socially awkward. It took me a lot of time and patience getting used to his way of communicating. At first, he sounded like an arrogant a\\hole, who always knew better. After some time working together, I was able to reinterpret his behavior so that I wouldn't feel offended by his ways and even found him being an actually cool guy to work with. But I know for sure, that a lot of people didn't try, which in the long run could cost him some of his reputation.
HCIdivision17 12y ago
`dang has pointed out the Principle of Charity [0], and I think it's beneficial to go one step further and choose to interpret that people are trying to be helpful by default. In fact, I think that if a person merely chooses to interprest best-case first by default, you can generally get along with anyone (until they incontrovertably prove you wrong... then it gets a bit awkward fast). I think that if the others are trying not to be jerks, then this awkward soul won't have much trouble. Properly implemented, there can be a lot of slack available to such a person. (Heck, I'm not brilliant, but many people seem to put up with and like me despite being fairly intense when wound up.) EDIT: Hey, references are cool: [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8800322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8800322
pjc50 12y ago
Well, if the explanation is done in a manner that people don't like, it's also likely to be ineffective. You can't improve things from a peer position while setting everyone against you. Believing that you're right is not a license to offend.
- pc86 12y ago
  This is important. You can be an asshole (in the present tense sense of the word) without "asshole" being a defining part of your character. If you're socially awkward but well-intentioned, yet when you speak everyone rolls their eyes because you come off as a condescending jerk, the end result is not much different than if you were actually a condescending jerk all along.
learnstats2 12y ago
In my experience, that kind of employee is dependent on good management. If they can be coached into providing help only where other team members appreciate it, then they can become a highly valuable member of the team. Or, if they are told simply to stop it by an authority figure, a person with noble intentions will normally respect that. An acceptable but perhaps tense solution. On the other hand, if they are allowed to annoy and frustrate other team members, then they're probably going to cause increasing amounts of trouble within the team.
- iopq 12y ago
  Unfortunately, if that happened to me I would think the managers are morons and my teammates are dicks for saying that I was being an asshole.
  - learnstats2 12y ago
    I think that's partly my point. A manager would hopefully recognise and deal with this situation, considerately, before the word 'asshole' was used. Then, the problem doesn't exist in the first place. If you've reached the stage you describe, you're probably not ever going to play nicely with that team. Sorry.
    - iopq 12y ago
      I personally never have, but I've gotten impatient with people who don't understand what I'm talking about. If you don't understand that I'm trying to help you and I'm getting frustrated and you have to go to the manager and cry, then I wouldn't want to work with you.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
When dealing with engineers it's very important to remember a few things: Engineers are all basically high-functioning autistics who have no idea how normal people do stuff. Cory Doctorow A milder form of this is frequently called Asperger's syndrome.[1] Sorry for the extended quote, but its from the Harvard Medical School family health guide, so hopefully there is at least some scientific consensus behind it: Despite normal and sometimes superior intelligence, people with Asperger’s have difficulty understanding social conventions and reading social cues. As a result, they often seem tactless or rude, and making friends can be hard for them. They may be unable to take hints, keep secrets, or understand metaphor, irony, and humor. The meaning of gestures, tone of voice, and facial expressions are a mystery to them, and their own body language and expressions may be inappropriate or hard to interpret. They stand too close, talk too loudly, and don’t make eye contact. Having said all that, in my experience engineers are often very coachable and can be taught social skills. The quintessential stereotype for this character is the scientist Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory. [1] http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0305a.shtml http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0305a.shtml
- cooper12 12y ago
  Please don't stereotype groups of people, regardless of how consistent your observations of them have been. It's pretty damning to a group to automatically assign them to autism or asperger's syndrome, both of which are medical disorders only properly diagnosed by doctors. It's like automatically treating the elderly like they have Alzheimer's. It also ignores that there can be (and are) great variations within groups, and applying a label on them can have reverberating consequences in policy. I'm sure you and Cory Doctorow have good intentions, so please don't take this as an affront against you. I'm just tired of people (especially the media) generating ridiculous stereotyped images of people. Good examples of these are the socially inept "nerd" Sheldon Cooper that you mentioned, the misunderstood genius that helps the heroes save the world in movies, and reclusive haunted writers. While I'm sure people of each type actually do exist, we should't treat people any differently unless we have a valid reason, and even then we should try to understand them as an individual. I understand that I might have taken your comment a bit out of context, so I apologize for that.

by wolfgke 12y ago

ivraatiems 12y ago

I have found that often (but not always), individuals who claim "awkwardness" or hide behind a label of awkwardness to avoid criticism for misbehavior are, in fact, assholes (as this article would seem to define them). People who are truly awkward don't go around telling others how awkward they are (close friends/partners/family excepted). The difference is easy to suss out: approach the person in question, say "hey, I think behavior X is causing an issue between us, can we work on it?" and wait. If they agree to try and then actually do(even if they don't succeed), they're not an asshole. If they make excuses, or agree to change but make no visible effort, they are.

philh 12y ago
wolfgke was talking about people who are awkward, not people who label themselves awkward.
- ivraatiems 12y ago
  Okay - but as far as I can see, the same rule applies. I guess my bigger issue here is this feeling I'm getting from this discussion that we should be making excuses for others on the basis of their intellect or our presumptions about their behavior.

iagooar 12y ago

I actually worked with a guy like this. He was a very intelligent, almost brilliant programmer at a very young age. But as brilliant as he was, he also was pretty socially awkward. It took me a lot of time and patience getting used to his way of communicating. At first, he sounded like an arrogant a\\hole, who always knew better. After some time working together, I was able to reinterpret his behavior so that I wouldn't feel offended by his ways and even found him being an actually cool guy to work with. But I know for sure, that a lot of people didn't try, which in the long run could cost him some of his reputation.

HCIdivision17 12y ago

`dang has pointed out the Principle of Charity [0], and I think it's beneficial to go one step further and choose to interpret that people are trying to be helpful by default. In fact, I think that if a person merely chooses to interprest best-case first by default, you can generally get along with anyone (until they incontrovertably prove you wrong... then it gets a bit awkward fast). I think that if the others are trying not to be jerks, then this awkward soul won't have much trouble. Properly implemented, there can be a lot of slack available to such a person. (Heck, I'm not brilliant, but many people seem to put up with and like me despite being fairly intense when wound up.) EDIT: Hey, references are cool: [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8800322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8800322

pjc50 12y ago

Well, if the explanation is done in a manner that people don't like, it's also likely to be ineffective. You can't improve things from a peer position while setting everyone against you. Believing that you're right is not a license to offend.

pc86 12y ago
This is important. You can be an asshole (in the present tense sense of the word) without "asshole" being a defining part of your character. If you're socially awkward but well-intentioned, yet when you speak everyone rolls their eyes because you come off as a condescending jerk, the end result is not much different than if you were actually a condescending jerk all along.

learnstats2 12y ago

In my experience, that kind of employee is dependent on good management. If they can be coached into providing help only where other team members appreciate it, then they can become a highly valuable member of the team. Or, if they are told simply to stop it by an authority figure, a person with noble intentions will normally respect that. An acceptable but perhaps tense solution. On the other hand, if they are allowed to annoy and frustrate other team members, then they're probably going to cause increasing amounts of trouble within the team.

iopq 12y ago
Unfortunately, if that happened to me I would think the managers are morons and my teammates are dicks for saying that I was being an asshole.
- learnstats2 12y ago
  I think that's partly my point. A manager would hopefully recognise and deal with this situation, considerately, before the word 'asshole' was used. Then, the problem doesn't exist in the first place. If you've reached the stage you describe, you're probably not ever going to play nicely with that team. Sorry.
  - iopq 12y ago
    I personally never have, but I've gotten impatient with people who don't understand what I'm talking about. If you don't understand that I'm trying to help you and I'm getting frustrated and you have to go to the manager and cry, then I wouldn't want to work with you.

PhantomGremlin 12y ago

When dealing with engineers it's very important to remember a few things: Engineers are all basically high-functioning autistics who have no idea how normal people do stuff. Cory Doctorow A milder form of this is frequently called Asperger's syndrome.[1] Sorry for the extended quote, but its from the Harvard Medical School family health guide, so hopefully there is at least some scientific consensus behind it: Despite normal and sometimes superior intelligence, people with Asperger’s have difficulty understanding social conventions and reading social cues. As a result, they often seem tactless or rude, and making friends can be hard for them. They may be unable to take hints, keep secrets, or understand metaphor, irony, and humor. The meaning of gestures, tone of voice, and facial expressions are a mystery to them, and their own body language and expressions may be inappropriate or hard to interpret. They stand too close, talk too loudly, and don’t make eye contact. Having said all that, in my experience engineers are often very coachable and can be taught social skills. The quintessential stereotype for this character is the scientist Sheldon Cooper on The Big Bang Theory. [1] http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0305a.shtml http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0305a.shtml

cooper12 12y ago
Please don't stereotype groups of people, regardless of how consistent your observations of them have been. It's pretty damning to a group to automatically assign them to autism or asperger's syndrome, both of which are medical disorders only properly diagnosed by doctors. It's like automatically treating the elderly like they have Alzheimer's. It also ignores that there can be (and are) great variations within groups, and applying a label on them can have reverberating consequences in policy. I'm sure you and Cory Doctorow have good intentions, so please don't take this as an affront against you. I'm just tired of people (especially the media) generating ridiculous stereotyped images of people. Good examples of these are the socially inept "nerd" Sheldon Cooper that you mentioned, the misunderstood genius that helps the heroes save the world in movies, and reclusive haunted writers. While I'm sure people of each type actually do exist, we should't treat people any differently unless we have a valid reason, and even then we should try to understand them as an individual. I understand that I might have taken your comment a bit out of context, so I apologize for that.