4 ms·

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have be

by j_m_b 12y ago

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people.

pdabbadabba 12y ago
> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people. Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing. Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way, but none of us are perfect, and these biases can be hard to suppress. But in the face of ample evidence that these biases are needlessly getting people killed (or, even more prevalently, to be disproportionately imprisoned), a police department has a duty to do something about it. I suspect this "something" will be a combination of training, change of internal culture (easier said then done), and altered tactics. I wish we could have a dialogue where we admit that biased policing is a problem, but simultaneously refrain from painting all cops as racist brutes. I see our present predicament, though, as a result of cops' failing to see past the names they've been called by the angriest voices out there (not by the mayor, I might add) to the fact that there really is a problem in their departments that is causing unconscionable harm to black communities.
- jxm262 12y ago
  This was a good comment that I can agree with. I'm also genuinely curious what the reaction/outcome would be if de Blasio would be less apologetic and slightly more confrontational with the Unions. Or even if the governor spoke out more.. Maybe confrontational is the wrong word, but rather something more "truthful" as your post is suggesting. I wonder what it actually takes to make a major cultural shift in the police force.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  > I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way... "Wrong" maybe, but it's also statistically sound. Police 3 to 4 times more likely to shoot a black man but black men are 5.6 times more likely to shoot a police officer. (source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osband-what-statistics-say-about-policing-america-1420411320 http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osband-what-statistics-say-... ) I think the relevant point from my source's editorial is this: "While these inferences aren’t fair to the vast majority on either side [(police or civilian)], they are rational responses to fear and uncertainty. As such, neither legislation nor indoctrination can banish them." So I'm not sure it's fair to call police officers racist. It's certainly not old-school Racist in the form of a deliberate and systematic oppression of a minority or an opinion that they're genetically inferior. (Disclaimer. This post is meant to provide insight into behavior of people, only. No specific public policy recommendation is hereby condemned or endorsed.)
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    There is a salient statistic that you (and the WSJ editorial) have overlooked: what are the actual odds that an officer will be shot by any given black man? They are greater, you say, than an officer's chances of being shot by a white man, but is the risk objectively large? I think the answer to this is clearly no. So while it might be rational for an officer to behave as though he is more likely to be shot, this is different from responding as though he is likely to be shot. Unfortunately, they are doing the latter entirely too often. Perhaps this is the result of natural cognitive biases (some combination of confirmation bias and negativity bias, maybe), amplified by the images we all see in the media. These are powerful forces that, I think, most of us struggle with. But that does not mean that cops, who are supposed to be highly trained professionals, entrusted with powerful weapons, and the preservation of public safety, do not have a duty to overcome these biases. (I agree it's not what you've called "old-school racist." But it makes no difference. Old-school racism is not the only bad kind of racism. [Is there a good kind?])
    - pdabbadabba 12y ago
nervousvarun 12y ago
It's all relative I guess. Here in the Nola we desperately, DESPERATELY need more cops.
- nickbauman 12y ago
  New Orleans has had quite a history of corruption in its police force. Are you sure?
  - nervousvarun 12y ago
    Sadly yes so it's sortof a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Just lately we've had serious issues recruiting police (largely due to antiquated policies like 'no visible tattoos' or 'they must live in Jefferson Parish (expensive on a cop's salary)'. The murder rate (always a problem in Nola) is actually currently down but violent crime is up significantly and the nature of the crime seems to be getting more and more brazen (http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/11266753-123/buffas-bar-in-french-quarter http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/11266753-123/buffa...). It's obviously a complicated issue that requires a lot more than just "more feet on the ground" but we certainly seem to not have enough at the moment. Here's a link but there's probably a million more available via Google: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/05/nopd_understaffing_examined.html http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/05/nopd_understaffi...
  - veidr 12y ago
    I am pretty sure that nobody who says "we desperately need more cops" means "we desperately need more corrupt cops".
    - nervousvarun 12y ago
      I take your point but in fairness OP is definitely correct regarding a corrupt Nola police force. Definitely not a simple issue.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      If you don't deal with the problems that lead to the existing cops being corrupt before trying to add new cops, that's what you get. So if you say "we desperately need more cops" without including "we first desperately need to deal with police corruption", when your present police department is noted for corruption, you are implicitly saying you need more corrupt cops. Or, at least, that you need more cops even if they are as corrupt as the existing ones.
mc32 12y ago
Apparently one of the reasons cited by some is that the decrease is due to police doubling up -not patrolling solo, due to perceived possible threats from possible crazies, and this doubling up has taken away availability to address non crucial policing matters...
- frandroid 12y ago
  Not that patrolling in pairs saved these two guys' lives...
- nerfhammer 12y ago
  NYPD rarely patrols solo source: http://forums.officer.com/t146829/ http://forums.officer.com/t146829/

by j_m_b 12y ago

pdabbadabba 12y ago

> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people. Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing. Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way, but none of us are perfect, and these biases can be hard to suppress. But in the face of ample evidence that these biases are needlessly getting people killed (or, even more prevalently, to be disproportionately imprisoned), a police department has a duty to do something about it. I suspect this "something" will be a combination of training, change of internal culture (easier said then done), and altered tactics. I wish we could have a dialogue where we admit that biased policing is a problem, but simultaneously refrain from painting all cops as racist brutes. I see our present predicament, though, as a result of cops' failing to see past the names they've been called by the angriest voices out there (not by the mayor, I might add) to the fact that there really is a problem in their departments that is causing unconscionable harm to black communities.

jxm262 12y ago
This was a good comment that I can agree with. I'm also genuinely curious what the reaction/outcome would be if de Blasio would be less apologetic and slightly more confrontational with the Unions. Or even if the governor spoke out more.. Maybe confrontational is the wrong word, but rather something more "truthful" as your post is suggesting. I wonder what it actually takes to make a major cultural shift in the police force.
fennecfoxen 12y ago
> I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way... "Wrong" maybe, but it's also statistically sound. Police 3 to 4 times more likely to shoot a black man but black men are 5.6 times more likely to shoot a police officer. (source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osband-what-statistics-say-about-policing-america-1420411320 http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osband-what-statistics-say-... ) I think the relevant point from my source's editorial is this: "While these inferences aren’t fair to the vast majority on either side [(police or civilian)], they are rational responses to fear and uncertainty. As such, neither legislation nor indoctrination can banish them." So I'm not sure it's fair to call police officers racist. It's certainly not old-school Racist in the form of a deliberate and systematic oppression of a minority or an opinion that they're genetically inferior. (Disclaimer. This post is meant to provide insight into behavior of people, only. No specific public policy recommendation is hereby condemned or endorsed.)
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  There is a salient statistic that you (and the WSJ editorial) have overlooked: what are the actual odds that an officer will be shot by any given black man? They are greater, you say, than an officer's chances of being shot by a white man, but is the risk objectively large? I think the answer to this is clearly no. So while it might be rational for an officer to behave as though he is more likely to be shot, this is different from responding as though he is likely to be shot. Unfortunately, they are doing the latter entirely too often. Perhaps this is the result of natural cognitive biases (some combination of confirmation bias and negativity bias, maybe), amplified by the images we all see in the media. These are powerful forces that, I think, most of us struggle with. But that does not mean that cops, who are supposed to be highly trained professionals, entrusted with powerful weapons, and the preservation of public safety, do not have a duty to overcome these biases. (I agree it's not what you've called "old-school racist." But it makes no difference. Old-school racism is not the only bad kind of racism. [Is there a good kind?])
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago

nervousvarun 12y ago

It's all relative I guess. Here in the Nola we desperately, DESPERATELY need more cops.

nickbauman 12y ago
New Orleans has had quite a history of corruption in its police force. Are you sure?
- nervousvarun 12y ago
  Sadly yes so it's sortof a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Just lately we've had serious issues recruiting police (largely due to antiquated policies like 'no visible tattoos' or 'they must live in Jefferson Parish (expensive on a cop's salary)'. The murder rate (always a problem in Nola) is actually currently down but violent crime is up significantly and the nature of the crime seems to be getting more and more brazen (http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/11266753-123/buffas-bar-in-french-quarter http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/11266753-123/buffa...). It's obviously a complicated issue that requires a lot more than just "more feet on the ground" but we certainly seem to not have enough at the moment. Here's a link but there's probably a million more available via Google: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/05/nopd_understaffing_examined.html http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/05/nopd_understaffi...
- veidr 12y ago
  I am pretty sure that nobody who says "we desperately need more cops" means "we desperately need more corrupt cops".
  - nervousvarun 12y ago
    I take your point but in fairness OP is definitely correct regarding a corrupt Nola police force. Definitely not a simple issue.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    If you don't deal with the problems that lead to the existing cops being corrupt before trying to add new cops, that's what you get. So if you say "we desperately need more cops" without including "we first desperately need to deal with police corruption", when your present police department is noted for corruption, you are implicitly saying you need more corrupt cops. Or, at least, that you need more cops even if they are as corrupt as the existing ones.

mc32 12y ago

Apparently one of the reasons cited by some is that the decrease is due to police doubling up -not patrolling solo, due to perceived possible threats from possible crazies, and this doubling up has taken away availability to address non crucial policing matters...

frandroid 12y ago
Not that patrolling in pairs saved these two guys' lives...
nerfhammer 12y ago
NYPD rarely patrols solo source: http://forums.officer.com/t146829/ http://forums.officer.com/t146829/