7 ms·

World Trade Center Towers Fill Slowly in Shift to Tech

43 points by svtrent 12y ago

gk1 12y ago
> The building -- still known to many by its former name, the Freedom Tower -- has faced criticism in recent months, including a negative architecture review in the New York Times by Michael Kimmelman, who wrote that the skyscraper “looks as if it could be anywhere, which New York isn’t.” Comedian Chris Rock, in a Saturday Night Live opening monologue, called it the “never-going-in-there-tower, ’cause I’m never going in there.” Both of those criticisms are so weak that I wonder how they made it into a Bloomberg article.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  The second one isn't even a criticism really - it's a joke. Sure it could be a real critique (still not a great one) but it's more likely he thought, "this sounds funny" and said it because he's a comedian.
joosters 12y ago
While the article tries to make the point that the tower is filling slowly, it fails to do any useful analysis to demonstrate this. Is it filling slower than the original towers? Is it filling slower than comparable office space, in NY or elsewhere? The writer never bothers to find out or inform us.
- krschultz 12y ago
  That's a very good point. The Hudson Yard office towers are similar in size and amenties, with a bit worse transit access than the WTC. They are also having a hard time filling the space. In general NYC construction is mostly residential (especially luxury), it seems like there is more demand for that at the moment. Most of the tech companies and startups are housed in the space above downtown but below proper midtown, in interesting older buildings. I generally think of the "startup" zone as Madison Square Park down to Soho.
- otoburb 12y ago
  >Is it filling slower than comparable office space, in NY or elsewhere? The writer never bothers to find out or inform us. I wonder if 42Floors would have any data on this that they could share, in general, as they ramped up a NYC office.
lmg643 12y ago
I think there is a major bias against the towers from the finance/insurance industries in NYC. Too many of their colleagues and friends were killed or impacted the last time around, like working in a graveyard. Here is a harrowing story from someone who was working there that day: http://www.wernerf.com/article/kamran.html http://www.wernerf.com/article/kamran.html It is plausible that tech firms would fill in the gap as they don't have the same associations, the buildings are brand new and they can build out or subdivide as they see fit. Without huge demand for the space, I'm sure the tech firms are getting awesome deals, well south of the 50-60 per sqft quoted here when all incentives are factored in. I'd even guess this is an example of Paul Graham's "The Submarine" in action - PR people trying to hype up demand for the building.
- kator 12y ago
  Also a lot of financial firms have way downsized since 2008 for obvious reasons.
- krschultz 12y ago
  In addition to that, the firms have all moved away and figured out a solution for their office space in the past 14 years. It's not like the financial firms were waiting in hotels all that time for them to build a new tower. The demand will have to come from companies looking for new office spaces, so generally growing or shrinking companies.
  - epc 12y ago
    This…many of the major firms either moved to midtown, or to Jersey City.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jgalt212 12y ago
  I hear that. I worked across the street from the Towers on 9/11, and there's no way I'd got and work in those new buildings. Too many bad memories, and I think the terrorists still have those buildings in their sights.
kator 12y ago
For 4 years I've lived about 5 blocks from the WTC compound and walk by it daily on my commute and as we move around the neighborhood. When we first moved here we were surprised at all the openings, it seems most of the financial companies have folded up or left the area and it's being rapidly developed as a residential area. The building I live in is something like 9 years old and all around us new buildings are going up with signs all over them about new residential housing. Still many other buildings are being refurbished to support residential housing and "fully furnished" housing. When I heard Conde and Media Math were moving in I told my wife "Here it comes Silicon Valley on a single campus". I recently learned of another very large tenant in Media and Tech that's moving in (can't share the name) along with several others related to the media and tech scene in NYC. My wife and I had been considering moving to another part of the city until we realized I'd have a 10 minute walk to most of the tech and media companies I'd either work for or consult for. Maybe the buildings are filling up slowly, but if they keep filling with tech and media companies the surrounding residential spaces will fill up quickly as the employees snag walking distance housing. This could create a really nice synergistic geographic location for tech and media innovation. I know this won't be a popular comment since most of HN is valley based, I spent 5 months of 2014 in the SF area, working for a start-up and consulting for clients in the valley. I burned so much time on the road my wife offered to commute with me so I could be in the carpool lane. Our company sold and I came back home to NYC. I've enjoyed being back home. One of my frustrations with "The Valley" is having to own a car to really be able to move around. Yes there is some transit but nothing like NYC. I lived most of my life in Los Angeles so I am overly aware of how horrific the car culture becomes. You lose so much time in the car, you're less productive, you have less family time and you're stressed and burnt before you even sit in your chair in the morning at work. When you have to start your own bus company to get your employees in and out of work something is amiss. I am hopeful that downtown could become the next challenger to the valley and do it with less people stuck on a freeway somewhere.
- jobu 12y ago
  Every 5 minutes further from the office is about 40 hours of commuting over a year. When I look at a job that's further away from my house it helps me to weigh the cost/benefit of losing a week or more of vacation.
bfwi 12y ago
This seems to insinuate that financial firms are not as numerous or maybe not as big as before. Does anyone know whether the financial sector has significantly grown or diminished from 2001 to now?
- epc 12y ago
  Finance is still a dominant sector in NYC but has been dropping since the late 1990s (accelerated post 9/11, but there's been a long term trend of back-office jobs being eliminated or moved out of the metro area).
jgalt212 12y ago
> At that pace, the towers wouldn’t reach 95 percent occupancy until 2019, almost two decades after the 9/11 attacks leveled the first twin towers. How is it that Manhattan residential and Manhattan commercial are so out of whack? As an example, Lincoln Towers, which from the outside looks like a public housing project. That being said, it sells for $1,400 square foot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Towers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Towers And we have these nice new commercial buildings that will take years to fill.
- skwirl 12y ago
  One reason is probably because residential leases are generally one year while commercial leases are multiple years, and it takes a lot of time and effort to move an office compared to an apartment. Companies are somewhat more locked into where they are currently.
- potatolicious 12y ago
  There are a lot more residential buyers and renters than commercial renters. Take the crazy supertalls going up on 57th St right now - those homes are actually surprisingly hard to sell, and those buildings also take years to fill purely by virtue of the fact that the number of qualified/interested buyers in the world is so low you can fit them all in the same conference room. Commercial space is in high demand in Manhattan, but companies also have relatively narrow parameters in the spaces they're able to rent (company size, location, nearby facilities, etc), which limits the number of potential renters.
  - jgalt212 12y ago
    > There are a lot more residential buyers and renters than commercial renters. That's my point. If this is the case, why do they keep building office buildings when the city actually needs apartment buildings?
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      Because the space is needed. The speed at which a market moves is not a measure of its size nor its supply/demand balance. Commercial real estate vacancy rate in Manhattan right now is quite low compared to historical trends - don't let the stories of megatall commercial projects fool you. Cost per square foot has been rising steadily throughout Manhattan and is now actually quite high. New buildings always take a lot of time to fully lease out due to structural inefficiencies and the more constricted customer base - the Empire State Building wasn't profitable for decades after it opened. This doesn't mean that the office space isn't needed. There are a lot fewer commercial renters, but they occupy a lot more space for a lot more time. Your typical New Yorker isn't, for example, renting a 30,000 square foot space on a 10-year lease.
solomania9 12y ago
I've been working in the building for about a month. Working at Conde, I'd love to see more tech / publishing companies move in.

43 points by svtrent 12y ago

gk1 12y ago

> The building -- still known to many by its former name, the Freedom Tower -- has faced criticism in recent months, including a negative architecture review in the New York Times by Michael Kimmelman, who wrote that the skyscraper “looks as if it could be anywhere, which New York isn’t.” Comedian Chris Rock, in a Saturday Night Live opening monologue, called it the “never-going-in-there-tower, ’cause I’m never going in there.” Both of those criticisms are so weak that I wonder how they made it into a Bloomberg article.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
The second one isn't even a criticism really - it's a joke. Sure it could be a real critique (still not a great one) but it's more likely he thought, "this sounds funny" and said it because he's a comedian.

joosters 12y ago

While the article tries to make the point that the tower is filling slowly, it fails to do any useful analysis to demonstrate this. Is it filling slower than the original towers? Is it filling slower than comparable office space, in NY or elsewhere? The writer never bothers to find out or inform us.

krschultz 12y ago
That's a very good point. The Hudson Yard office towers are similar in size and amenties, with a bit worse transit access than the WTC. They are also having a hard time filling the space. In general NYC construction is mostly residential (especially luxury), it seems like there is more demand for that at the moment. Most of the tech companies and startups are housed in the space above downtown but below proper midtown, in interesting older buildings. I generally think of the "startup" zone as Madison Square Park down to Soho.
otoburb 12y ago
>Is it filling slower than comparable office space, in NY or elsewhere? The writer never bothers to find out or inform us. I wonder if 42Floors would have any data on this that they could share, in general, as they ramped up a NYC office.

lmg643 12y ago

I think there is a major bias against the towers from the finance/insurance industries in NYC. Too many of their colleagues and friends were killed or impacted the last time around, like working in a graveyard. Here is a harrowing story from someone who was working there that day: http://www.wernerf.com/article/kamran.html http://www.wernerf.com/article/kamran.html It is plausible that tech firms would fill in the gap as they don't have the same associations, the buildings are brand new and they can build out or subdivide as they see fit. Without huge demand for the space, I'm sure the tech firms are getting awesome deals, well south of the 50-60 per sqft quoted here when all incentives are factored in. I'd even guess this is an example of Paul Graham's "The Submarine" in action - PR people trying to hype up demand for the building.

kator 12y ago
Also a lot of financial firms have way downsized since 2008 for obvious reasons.
krschultz 12y ago
In addition to that, the firms have all moved away and figured out a solution for their office space in the past 14 years. It's not like the financial firms were waiting in hotels all that time for them to build a new tower. The demand will have to come from companies looking for new office spaces, so generally growing or shrinking companies.
- epc 12y ago
  This…many of the major firms either moved to midtown, or to Jersey City.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jgalt212 12y ago
I hear that. I worked across the street from the Towers on 9/11, and there's no way I'd got and work in those new buildings. Too many bad memories, and I think the terrorists still have those buildings in their sights.

kator 12y ago

For 4 years I've lived about 5 blocks from the WTC compound and walk by it daily on my commute and as we move around the neighborhood. When we first moved here we were surprised at all the openings, it seems most of the financial companies have folded up or left the area and it's being rapidly developed as a residential area. The building I live in is something like 9 years old and all around us new buildings are going up with signs all over them about new residential housing. Still many other buildings are being refurbished to support residential housing and "fully furnished" housing. When I heard Conde and Media Math were moving in I told my wife "Here it comes Silicon Valley on a single campus". I recently learned of another very large tenant in Media and Tech that's moving in (can't share the name) along with several others related to the media and tech scene in NYC. My wife and I had been considering moving to another part of the city until we realized I'd have a 10 minute walk to most of the tech and media companies I'd either work for or consult for. Maybe the buildings are filling up slowly, but if they keep filling with tech and media companies the surrounding residential spaces will fill up quickly as the employees snag walking distance housing. This could create a really nice synergistic geographic location for tech and media innovation. I know this won't be a popular comment since most of HN is valley based, I spent 5 months of 2014 in the SF area, working for a start-up and consulting for clients in the valley. I burned so much time on the road my wife offered to commute with me so I could be in the carpool lane. Our company sold and I came back home to NYC. I've enjoyed being back home. One of my frustrations with "The Valley" is having to own a car to really be able to move around. Yes there is some transit but nothing like NYC. I lived most of my life in Los Angeles so I am overly aware of how horrific the car culture becomes. You lose so much time in the car, you're less productive, you have less family time and you're stressed and burnt before you even sit in your chair in the morning at work. When you have to start your own bus company to get your employees in and out of work something is amiss. I am hopeful that downtown could become the next challenger to the valley and do it with less people stuck on a freeway somewhere.

jobu 12y ago
Every 5 minutes further from the office is about 40 hours of commuting over a year. When I look at a job that's further away from my house it helps me to weigh the cost/benefit of losing a week or more of vacation.

bfwi 12y ago

This seems to insinuate that financial firms are not as numerous or maybe not as big as before. Does anyone know whether the financial sector has significantly grown or diminished from 2001 to now?

epc 12y ago
Finance is still a dominant sector in NYC but has been dropping since the late 1990s (accelerated post 9/11, but there's been a long term trend of back-office jobs being eliminated or moved out of the metro area).

jgalt212 12y ago

> At that pace, the towers wouldn’t reach 95 percent occupancy until 2019, almost two decades after the 9/11 attacks leveled the first twin towers. How is it that Manhattan residential and Manhattan commercial are so out of whack? As an example, Lincoln Towers, which from the outside looks like a public housing project. That being said, it sells for $1,400 square foot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Towers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Towers And we have these nice new commercial buildings that will take years to fill.

skwirl 12y ago
One reason is probably because residential leases are generally one year while commercial leases are multiple years, and it takes a lot of time and effort to move an office compared to an apartment. Companies are somewhat more locked into where they are currently.
potatolicious 12y ago
There are a lot more residential buyers and renters than commercial renters. Take the crazy supertalls going up on 57th St right now - those homes are actually surprisingly hard to sell, and those buildings also take years to fill purely by virtue of the fact that the number of qualified/interested buyers in the world is so low you can fit them all in the same conference room. Commercial space is in high demand in Manhattan, but companies also have relatively narrow parameters in the spaces they're able to rent (company size, location, nearby facilities, etc), which limits the number of potential renters.
- jgalt212 12y ago
  > There are a lot more residential buyers and renters than commercial renters. That's my point. If this is the case, why do they keep building office buildings when the city actually needs apartment buildings?
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    Because the space is needed. The speed at which a market moves is not a measure of its size nor its supply/demand balance. Commercial real estate vacancy rate in Manhattan right now is quite low compared to historical trends - don't let the stories of megatall commercial projects fool you. Cost per square foot has been rising steadily throughout Manhattan and is now actually quite high. New buildings always take a lot of time to fully lease out due to structural inefficiencies and the more constricted customer base - the Empire State Building wasn't profitable for decades after it opened. This doesn't mean that the office space isn't needed. There are a lot fewer commercial renters, but they occupy a lot more space for a lot more time. Your typical New Yorker isn't, for example, renting a 30,000 square foot space on a 10-year lease.

solomania9 12y ago

I've been working in the building for about a month. Working at Conde, I'd love to see more tech / publishing companies move in.