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Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I think we actually strike a pretty good balance. There are clearly large contingents of Apple, Goog

by jnbiche 12y ago

Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I think we actually strike a pretty good balance. There are clearly large contingents of Apple, Google, and Microsoft fans/employees, all of whom tend to balance each other out. Then there is a large group of younger civil libertarians/libertarians as well as a large group of liberals. And then there is a large group of older, traditional "MIT-style" hackers. I guess that there is some technophile group think that goes on, and it's true that among the SV contingent, there's a certain amount of ignorance about the state of the country outside of Silicon Valley. But all in all, I think there are enough counterbalancing ideologies and interests here on HN that the hive mind tends not to occur to the same extent as on subreddits, which are by definition single-interest groups.

deleted 12y ago
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manticore_alpha 12y ago
This is the funniest thing I've read in WEEKS. Thank you.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  I'm not sure why you say that. I see that a few comments you made about the paleo diet were probably unfairly downvoted. But some of your more controversial comments, like on H1Bs, were rigorously debated, with lots of people on either side. Why would you make a comment like that seeking to make fun of what I wrote? It definitely doesn't further the conversation. Are you hoping to shut it down? And if you disagree so strongly, tell me why. I'd like to know. Edit: Seriously, what are you laughing at? My criticism of Silicon Valley or my defense of HN's relative balance?
balls187 12y ago
> Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? Sure. See any comments relating to "idea guy" vs "hacker" or "founder" vs "employee." The hivemind attitude that I see on HN could be summarized by "People who can write code should be given preferential treatment." Which makes sense, given by and large, people who participate here have some sort of coding capabilities, so that mentality is clearly self serving. But hardly makes this balanced, and not hive-minded.
sesutton 12y ago
I think this[0] thread is a pretty good example of a hive mind in action. I disagree with a lot of those comments but I would have had to put a lot more effort to write a dissenting comment than most other commenters just to have a chance of not being downvoted into oblivion. But I can easily imagine lots of one sentence comments I could have made that would have been at worst ignored. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838721
- jnbiche 12y ago
  Frankly, people concerned about surveillance and civil liberties is a hive mind I'm proud to be a part of. We're definitely a very small minority in our respective countries, so no argument can be made that we're part of some oppressive majority. So yeah, guilty there.
  - PeterWhittaker 12y ago
    Wow, downvoted away. The irony abounds.
o2sd98 12y ago
Your description of balance illustrates the problem. Lets say you have two groups of people, one of which thinks you should put sugar in bread, and the other which thinks putting sugar in bread is blasphemous. On the issue of sugar in bread, you will get a rigorous debate for the affirmative and negative. However, if someone posts something to the effect of "Humans shouldn't be eating bread", both of those groups of people will vote that comment down, regardless of the argument presented. Apple, Google and Microsoft fans all agree that computers and software are 'good things', it is the implementation details where they disagree, so any dissenting opinion to common ground that those groups share will be prejudicially downvoted into oblivion. It is this common ground where group think is created and reinforced.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  That's a pretty fair criticism, and I have to agree with everything that you write here. But I don't see any way around that. I can't imagine a general interest site could possibly function like HN.
  - o2sd98 12y ago
    About 18 months ago I stopped posting regularly on HN after my former account was downvoted into a type of purgatory that was impossible to escape from. I still read the interesting articles and the occasional interesting discussion, but something I discovered in the intervening period of participating in unmoderated/uncensored forums is that trolls make you THINK. There are some exceptional trolls out there on the interwebs, some of whom do it as a day job. They post articulate but specious arguments that are very difficult to debunk unless you do meticulous research, double check your calculations, edit your reply for succinctness, remove any possible semantic ambiguity. I think there is an argument to be made for the stimulating effect of trolls on the rigour and effort of the opposing participants. I agree however that trolls can and have destroyed valuable forums of discussion, but so has lack of interest.
    - jnbiche 12y ago
      >something I discovered in the intervening period of participating in unmoderated/uncensored forums is that trolls make you THINK Some trolls make you think. Some trolls only hope to destroy online communities, and they are usually very good at it. It can be very hard sometimes to differentiate between the two. Also, it's entirely possible to make people think without trolling (and I know you weren't claiming this). For example, your response to my remark made me think without being trollish. I personally prefer to participate in communities that promote your type of provocative comment, and not in ones where trolls are given free reign. But that's just me.
asgard1024 12y ago
> Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I have a problem with HN voting conceptually, compared to Slashdot - on Slashdot, you were supposed not to downvote a comment that you disagree with. The purpose of upvotes and downvotes was to facilitate discussion. On HN, the policy seems to be - if you agree/disagree, upvote/downvote (although I am not sure it's official, that's what I have been told, I may have been trolled :-)).
- jnbiche 12y ago
  I too prefer your the Slashdot approach, and there's quite a few of us on HN who vote in that way. However, since there's no official policy on that, it can go either way (even though PGs writings seem to strongly support your approach).

by jnbiche 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

manticore_alpha 12y ago

This is the funniest thing I've read in WEEKS. Thank you.

jnbiche 12y ago
I'm not sure why you say that. I see that a few comments you made about the paleo diet were probably unfairly downvoted. But some of your more controversial comments, like on H1Bs, were rigorously debated, with lots of people on either side. Why would you make a comment like that seeking to make fun of what I wrote? It definitely doesn't further the conversation. Are you hoping to shut it down? And if you disagree so strongly, tell me why. I'd like to know. Edit: Seriously, what are you laughing at? My criticism of Silicon Valley or my defense of HN's relative balance?

balls187 12y ago

> Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? Sure. See any comments relating to "idea guy" vs "hacker" or "founder" vs "employee." The hivemind attitude that I see on HN could be summarized by "People who can write code should be given preferential treatment." Which makes sense, given by and large, people who participate here have some sort of coding capabilities, so that mentality is clearly self serving. But hardly makes this balanced, and not hive-minded.

sesutton 12y ago

I think this[0] thread is a pretty good example of a hive mind in action. I disagree with a lot of those comments but I would have had to put a lot more effort to write a dissenting comment than most other commenters just to have a chance of not being downvoted into oblivion. But I can easily imagine lots of one sentence comments I could have made that would have been at worst ignored. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8838721

jnbiche 12y ago
Frankly, people concerned about surveillance and civil liberties is a hive mind I'm proud to be a part of. We're definitely a very small minority in our respective countries, so no argument can be made that we're part of some oppressive majority. So yeah, guilty there.
- PeterWhittaker 12y ago
  Wow, downvoted away. The irony abounds.

o2sd98 12y ago

Your description of balance illustrates the problem. Lets say you have two groups of people, one of which thinks you should put sugar in bread, and the other which thinks putting sugar in bread is blasphemous. On the issue of sugar in bread, you will get a rigorous debate for the affirmative and negative. However, if someone posts something to the effect of "Humans shouldn't be eating bread", both of those groups of people will vote that comment down, regardless of the argument presented. Apple, Google and Microsoft fans all agree that computers and software are 'good things', it is the implementation details where they disagree, so any dissenting opinion to common ground that those groups share will be prejudicially downvoted into oblivion. It is this common ground where group think is created and reinforced.

jnbiche 12y ago
That's a pretty fair criticism, and I have to agree with everything that you write here. But I don't see any way around that. I can't imagine a general interest site could possibly function like HN.
- o2sd98 12y ago
  About 18 months ago I stopped posting regularly on HN after my former account was downvoted into a type of purgatory that was impossible to escape from. I still read the interesting articles and the occasional interesting discussion, but something I discovered in the intervening period of participating in unmoderated/uncensored forums is that trolls make you THINK. There are some exceptional trolls out there on the interwebs, some of whom do it as a day job. They post articulate but specious arguments that are very difficult to debunk unless you do meticulous research, double check your calculations, edit your reply for succinctness, remove any possible semantic ambiguity. I think there is an argument to be made for the stimulating effect of trolls on the rigour and effort of the opposing participants. I agree however that trolls can and have destroyed valuable forums of discussion, but so has lack of interest.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    >something I discovered in the intervening period of participating in unmoderated/uncensored forums is that trolls make you THINK Some trolls make you think. Some trolls only hope to destroy online communities, and they are usually very good at it. It can be very hard sometimes to differentiate between the two. Also, it's entirely possible to make people think without trolling (and I know you weren't claiming this). For example, your response to my remark made me think without being trollish. I personally prefer to participate in communities that promote your type of provocative comment, and not in ones where trolls are given free reign. But that's just me.

asgard1024 12y ago

> Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I have a problem with HN voting conceptually, compared to Slashdot - on Slashdot, you were supposed not to downvote a comment that you disagree with. The purpose of upvotes and downvotes was to facilitate discussion. On HN, the policy seems to be - if you agree/disagree, upvote/downvote (although I am not sure it's official, that's what I have been told, I may have been trolled :-)).

jnbiche 12y ago
I too prefer your the Slashdot approach, and there's quite a few of us on HN who vote in that way. However, since there's no official policy on that, it can go either way (even though PGs writings seem to strongly support your approach).