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Why go to a different site? You can see the "hivemind, circle jerk communities" phenomenon right here. I'm not trying to be cynical but HN certainly displays th

Why go to a different site? You can see the "hivemind, circle jerk communities" phenomenon right here. I'm not trying to be cynical but HN certainly displays the same criticism you levy on reddit (as does apparently any community that allows voting).

aaron-lebo 12y ago
Absolutely. But if I had said that I wouldn't be getting sweet Internet points right now. I joke. Reddit is the best example, I think because of how subreddits usually follow a very specific cycle of creation to focus on a specific topic, then the upvoting dynamic creates a strong hivemind, then the dissenters leave and create their own even more narrowly focused community (see /r/politics to /r/conservative), and then it starts over. It's destructive. HN is a little better because there are actually some limits on democracy if you will (thresholds, flagging, etc), which goes back to the heart of my mention of political science. Different political philosophers have been discussing the dangers of overly simple voting scheme since Plato or earlier.
- rancur 12y ago
  what it comes down to is people here don't present easily dismissible notions for my above average intelligence to ignore; those on reddit do. Not having a downvote is valuable. Limiting max score is valuable. but people still abuse overrated/troll/flamebait on Slashdot. the core of the problem is that truly intelligent people have moved on to greater aspirations than internet posting. Also, the dumb people on forums these days are a lot dumber than they were 15 years ago when I was getting started. And no, that's not just my perception in hindsight. The noise has gotten bad enough that I just don't participate in them. People don't see clearly like they used to, so it's not worth pointing.
  - balls187 12y ago
    > Also, the dumb people on forums these days are a lot dumber than they were 15 years ago when I was getting started Probably correlated with more internet connectivity than 15 years ago.
    - rancur 12y ago
      but AOL?
- deleted 12y ago
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- maratd 12y ago
  > But if I had said that I wouldn't be getting sweet Internet points right now. Yes, you would. Criticizing and complaining about HN is popular on HN. I think you nailed it though, it's the "points" thing. You're creating an incentive for people to desperately say witty things to get more points, but when people forcefully try to be witty or helpful they end up being formulaic in the worst way ... they find patterns that people almost always approve of and use that. I wonder what would happen if you actually hide all the numbers ... all karma/etc is still there, just not visible to the user.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    >I wonder what would happen if you actually hide all the numbers ... all karma/etc is still there, just not visible to the user. That's a pretty interesting idea. I like it. I don't know of any community that has tried this.
    - jrs235 12y ago
      What if you were only allotted a certain (small) number of upvotes and downvotes per day or HN submission? I wonder what effect that would have.
      - jnbiche 12y ago
        I think for one thing it would cut down on the phenonenom I've noticed here where slightly controversial comments are immediately downvoted, but which then are upvoted back to full visibility. There seems to be a dedicated core of HNers who zealously and frequently downvote any comment that's not directly related to hard-core technology issues (there may be other motives, I've not examined the patterns carefully). These quick dowvotes are often enough to cause some feelings of ill-will that persist through the rest of the exchange. I think limiting the number of available downvotes would drastically reduce these quick downvotes, which would be a good thing.
      - ctdonath 12y ago
        How about downvotes costing you karma? Warm fuzzy upvotes wherever you like (limited only by how long you want to spend doing so), but harming someone else via downvote only available if you're committed enough to lose a karma point of your own. The "pile on the crappy post" is easy when it's free, but sometimes downvoting is personally important enough to do even if it costs something.
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jnbiche 12y ago
Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I think we actually strike a pretty good balance. There are clearly large contingents of Apple, Google, and Microsoft fans/employees, all of whom tend to balance each other out. Then there is a large group of younger civil libertarians/libertarians as well as a large group of liberals. And then there is a large group of older, traditional "MIT-style" hackers. I guess that there is some technophile group think that goes on, and it's true that among the SV contingent, there's a certain amount of ignorance about the state of the country outside of Silicon Valley. But all in all, I think there are enough counterbalancing ideologies and interests here on HN that the hive mind tends not to occur to the same extent as on subreddits, which are by definition single-interest groups.
- deleted 12y ago
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- manticore_alpha 12y ago
  This is the funniest thing I've read in WEEKS. Thank you.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    I'm not sure why you say that. I see that a few comments you made about the paleo diet were probably unfairly downvoted. But some of your more controversial comments, like on H1Bs, were rigorously debated, with lots of people on either side. Why would you make a comment like that seeking to make fun of what I wrote? It definitely doesn't further the conversation. Are you hoping to shut it down? And if you disagree so strongly, tell me why. I'd like to know. Edit: Seriously, what are you laughing at? My criticism of Silicon Valley or my defense of HN's relative balance?
- balls187 12y ago
  > Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? Sure. See any comments relating to "idea guy" vs "hacker" or "founder" vs "employee." The hivemind attitude that I see on HN could be summarized by "People who can write code should be given preferential treatment." Which makes sense, given by and large, people who participate here have some sort of coding capabilities, so that mentality is clearly self serving. But hardly makes this balanced, and not hive-minded.

aaron-lebo 12y ago

Absolutely. But if I had said that I wouldn't be getting sweet Internet points right now. I joke. Reddit is the best example, I think because of how subreddits usually follow a very specific cycle of creation to focus on a specific topic, then the upvoting dynamic creates a strong hivemind, then the dissenters leave and create their own even more narrowly focused community (see /r/politics to /r/conservative), and then it starts over. It's destructive. HN is a little better because there are actually some limits on democracy if you will (thresholds, flagging, etc), which goes back to the heart of my mention of political science. Different political philosophers have been discussing the dangers of overly simple voting scheme since Plato or earlier.

rancur 12y ago
what it comes down to is people here don't present easily dismissible notions for my above average intelligence to ignore; those on reddit do. Not having a downvote is valuable. Limiting max score is valuable. but people still abuse overrated/troll/flamebait on Slashdot. the core of the problem is that truly intelligent people have moved on to greater aspirations than internet posting. Also, the dumb people on forums these days are a lot dumber than they were 15 years ago when I was getting started. And no, that's not just my perception in hindsight. The noise has gotten bad enough that I just don't participate in them. People don't see clearly like they used to, so it's not worth pointing.
- balls187 12y ago
  > Also, the dumb people on forums these days are a lot dumber than they were 15 years ago when I was getting started Probably correlated with more internet connectivity than 15 years ago.
  - rancur 12y ago
    but AOL?
deleted 12y ago
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maratd 12y ago
> But if I had said that I wouldn't be getting sweet Internet points right now. Yes, you would. Criticizing and complaining about HN is popular on HN. I think you nailed it though, it's the "points" thing. You're creating an incentive for people to desperately say witty things to get more points, but when people forcefully try to be witty or helpful they end up being formulaic in the worst way ... they find patterns that people almost always approve of and use that. I wonder what would happen if you actually hide all the numbers ... all karma/etc is still there, just not visible to the user.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  >I wonder what would happen if you actually hide all the numbers ... all karma/etc is still there, just not visible to the user. That's a pretty interesting idea. I like it. I don't know of any community that has tried this.
  - jrs235 12y ago
    What if you were only allotted a certain (small) number of upvotes and downvotes per day or HN submission? I wonder what effect that would have.
    - jnbiche 12y ago
      I think for one thing it would cut down on the phenonenom I've noticed here where slightly controversial comments are immediately downvoted, but which then are upvoted back to full visibility. There seems to be a dedicated core of HNers who zealously and frequently downvote any comment that's not directly related to hard-core technology issues (there may be other motives, I've not examined the patterns carefully). These quick dowvotes are often enough to cause some feelings of ill-will that persist through the rest of the exchange. I think limiting the number of available downvotes would drastically reduce these quick downvotes, which would be a good thing.
    - ctdonath 12y ago
      How about downvotes costing you karma? Warm fuzzy upvotes wherever you like (limited only by how long you want to spend doing so), but harming someone else via downvote only available if you're committed enough to lose a karma point of your own. The "pile on the crappy post" is easy when it's free, but sometimes downvoting is personally important enough to do even if it costs something.

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jnbiche 12y ago

Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? I think we actually strike a pretty good balance. There are clearly large contingents of Apple, Google, and Microsoft fans/employees, all of whom tend to balance each other out. Then there is a large group of younger civil libertarians/libertarians as well as a large group of liberals. And then there is a large group of older, traditional "MIT-style" hackers. I guess that there is some technophile group think that goes on, and it's true that among the SV contingent, there's a certain amount of ignorance about the state of the country outside of Silicon Valley. But all in all, I think there are enough counterbalancing ideologies and interests here on HN that the hive mind tends not to occur to the same extent as on subreddits, which are by definition single-interest groups.

deleted 12y ago
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manticore_alpha 12y ago
This is the funniest thing I've read in WEEKS. Thank you.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  I'm not sure why you say that. I see that a few comments you made about the paleo diet were probably unfairly downvoted. But some of your more controversial comments, like on H1Bs, were rigorously debated, with lots of people on either side. Why would you make a comment like that seeking to make fun of what I wrote? It definitely doesn't further the conversation. Are you hoping to shut it down? And if you disagree so strongly, tell me why. I'd like to know. Edit: Seriously, what are you laughing at? My criticism of Silicon Valley or my defense of HN's relative balance?
balls187 12y ago
> Can you point out some "hive mind" ideologies here on HN? Sure. See any comments relating to "idea guy" vs "hacker" or "founder" vs "employee." The hivemind attitude that I see on HN could be summarized by "People who can write code should be given preferential treatment." Which makes sense, given by and large, people who participate here have some sort of coding capabilities, so that mentality is clearly self serving. But hardly makes this balanced, and not hive-minded.