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> Soldiers like Carton de Wiart are a real example for troops serving today. It's quite sad that having sacrificed so much his story isn't particularly well-kno

by doktrin 12y ago

> Soldiers like Carton de Wiart are a real example for troops serving today. It's quite sad that having sacrificed so much his story isn't particularly well-known. de Wiart was clearly a man of superhuman grit, but I'm a little confused by the characterization of his personal suffering as "sacrifice". By his own admission, he was a warfighter who wanted to fight in war. At least as far as the Boer conflict goes, he didn't care much about which side he was on. He was thus neither patriotic nor apparently driven by any other similar notion of "service" to a higher cause. If the article's characterization is correct, he was principally driven by war for war's sake. This was who he wanted to be and what he wanted to do. He was in fact self-actualizing in a way that most people never do. He followed his true passion and his dream. Why then are his injuries characterized as "sacrifice"? Would it have been "sacrifice" if he had been injured in the process of pursuing a passion for big game hunting, or as a test pilot in some barely functional bi-plane? Maybe I'm splitting hairs that don't need to be split or quibbling over minor semantics, but this touched on a lingering issue I've had with the verbiage surrounding war & conflict, and the double standards we collectively employ when talking & thinking about it.

grownseed 12y ago
As much as I'm impressed by the man himself, I completely agree. This glorification of war is not exactly healthy, at least not to me. Currently living in Canada, it was Remembrance day a couple of months ago and I told some of my friends that it made me feel uncomfortable, which wasn't particularly well received. TV would show and tell about "glorious" moments of war, people would gather to remember the heroes who lost their lives or their limbs (in war, any soldier on the winning side is apparently a hero, as for the losing side...), and so on. It's not that I don't feel bad for all those who lost something throughout wars, I honestly do and it pains me. However these traditions we have instill the idea that war is not just ok, it's something to be proud of. That having countless people on one side or the other end up as canon fodder is not just ok, it's part of the game. The ironic beauty of History is that everybody has their own version... in the right light, and with enough time passed, it seems like any war could be the pinnacle of honor. Some wars may be necessary but I'd argue that the vast majority aren't. Also a favorite of mine on the subject: http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-Great-Dictator-s-Speech http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-Gr...
- jpollock 12y ago
  I think you're doing the holiday a disservice. I recommend attending one of the services. One of my most memorable experiences growing up was attending a Remembrance Day ceremony at one of the military cemeteries. There is nothing like standing silently surrounded by Canadian headstones from all walks of life as Last Post is played to remind you that war has a definite cost. It still makes me emotional.
- jpollock 12y ago
  I think you're doing the holiday a disservice. I recommend attending one of the services. One of my most memorable experiences growing up was attending a Remembrance Day ceremony at one of the military cemeteries. There is nothing like standing silently surrounded by Canadian headstones from all walks of life as Last Post is played to remind you that war has a definite cost. It still makes me emotional.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Vonnegut's take on it in Breakfast of Champions seems right: "I will come to a time in my backwards trip when November eleventh, accidentally my birthday, was a sacred day called Armistice Day. When I was a boy, and when Dwayne Hoover was a boy, all the people of all the nations which had fought in the First World War were silent during the eleventh minute of the eleventh hour of Armistice Day, which was the eleventh day of the eleventh month. It was during that minute in nineteen hundred and eighteen, that millions upon millions of human beings stopped butchering one another. I have talked to old men who were on battlefields during that minute. They have told me in one way or another that the sudden silence was the Voice of God. So we still have among us some men who can remember when God spoke clearly to mankind. Armistice Day has become Veterans’ Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans’ Day is not. So I will throw Veterans’ Day over my shoulder. Armistice Day I will keep. I don’t want to throw away any sacred things. What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance. And all music is." --- The celebration of the armistice is sacred. The jingoism that has been introduced since is utterly profane.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
I sometimes think that a lot of the war machine is partly about governments seeking to identify the people within their country who are most capable of organized violence, and then making sure they spend as much time abroad as possible, preferably somewhere very dangerous.
- woodman 12y ago
  So are you trying to insult the military, the government, or are you just demonstrating lazy thinking? If your thinking was anywhere close to reality: the military would welcome criminals, the infantry would fill the majority of the ranks and be treated like cannon fodder, and very little time and money would be spent on training and support. The opposite is true.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    No, it came from a reading a history of the Crusades, which certain Kings and the Church did view at the time as a method of getting troublesome Knights out of Europe, or at least that is what is stated by many historians. edit - and why give up on a successful strategy? It pays to keep the experts in the use of force busy.
    - woodman 12y ago
      Well history is great, not repeating the same mistakes and all, but some events are more relevant than others :)
      - lotsofmangos 12y ago
        Actually, the parallels are striking. All sorts of dangerous idiots on all sides are heading for the big trapdoor erected over the completely and utterly predictable power vacuum we left in Iraq.
        woodman 12y ago
Jtsummers 12y ago
Have you read this [0] article yet? Also worth checking out, available if you click on the author's name, are the various responses he's gotten to it. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-trag...
Jtsummers 12y ago
Have you read this [0] article yet? Also worth checking out, available if you click on the author's name, are the various responses he's gotten to it. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-trag...
Jtsummers 12y ago
Have you read this [0] article yet? Also worth checking out, available if you click on the author's name, are the various responses he's gotten to it. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-trag...
Jtsummers 12y ago
Have you read this [0] article yet? Also worth checking out, available if you click on the author's name, are the various responses he's gotten to it. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-trag...
woodman 12y ago
The same can be said of firemen, who absolutely love their job. There is nothing wrong with questioning the actual utility or riotousness of an action, but predicating it on the feelings of the actor is illogical. Yes, the concept of a hatecrime, and the additional weight given, is illogical.
scotty79 12y ago
Isn't what the workaholics do considered a sacrifice? Even if they do it just because they need it and want it?

by doktrin 12y ago

grownseed 12y ago

As much as I'm impressed by the man himself, I completely agree. This glorification of war is not exactly healthy, at least not to me. Currently living in Canada, it was Remembrance day a couple of months ago and I told some of my friends that it made me feel uncomfortable, which wasn't particularly well received. TV would show and tell about "glorious" moments of war, people would gather to remember the heroes who lost their lives or their limbs (in war, any soldier on the winning side is apparently a hero, as for the losing side...), and so on. It's not that I don't feel bad for all those who lost something throughout wars, I honestly do and it pains me. However these traditions we have instill the idea that war is not just ok, it's something to be proud of. That having countless people on one side or the other end up as canon fodder is not just ok, it's part of the game. The ironic beauty of History is that everybody has their own version... in the right light, and with enough time passed, it seems like any war could be the pinnacle of honor. Some wars may be necessary but I'd argue that the vast majority aren't. Also a favorite of mine on the subject: http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-Great-Dictator-s-Speech http://www.charliechaplin.com/en/synopsis/articles/29-The-Gr...

jpollock 12y ago
I think you're doing the holiday a disservice. I recommend attending one of the services. One of my most memorable experiences growing up was attending a Remembrance Day ceremony at one of the military cemeteries. There is nothing like standing silently surrounded by Canadian headstones from all walks of life as Last Post is played to remind you that war has a definite cost. It still makes me emotional.
jpollock 12y ago
I think you're doing the holiday a disservice. I recommend attending one of the services. One of my most memorable experiences growing up was attending a Remembrance Day ceremony at one of the military cemeteries. There is nothing like standing silently surrounded by Canadian headstones from all walks of life as Last Post is played to remind you that war has a definite cost. It still makes me emotional.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Vonnegut's take on it in Breakfast of Champions seems right: "I will come to a time in my backwards trip when November eleventh, accidentally my birthday, was a sacred day called Armistice Day. When I was a boy, and when Dwayne Hoover was a boy, all the people of all the nations which had fought in the First World War were silent during the eleventh minute of the eleventh hour of Armistice Day, which was the eleventh day of the eleventh month. It was during that minute in nineteen hundred and eighteen, that millions upon millions of human beings stopped butchering one another. I have talked to old men who were on battlefields during that minute. They have told me in one way or another that the sudden silence was the Voice of God. So we still have among us some men who can remember when God spoke clearly to mankind. Armistice Day has become Veterans’ Day. Armistice Day was sacred. Veterans’ Day is not. So I will throw Veterans’ Day over my shoulder. Armistice Day I will keep. I don’t want to throw away any sacred things. What else is sacred? Oh, Romeo and Juliet, for instance. And all music is." --- The celebration of the armistice is sacred. The jingoism that has been introduced since is utterly profane.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

I sometimes think that a lot of the war machine is partly about governments seeking to identify the people within their country who are most capable of organized violence, and then making sure they spend as much time abroad as possible, preferably somewhere very dangerous.

woodman 12y ago
So are you trying to insult the military, the government, or are you just demonstrating lazy thinking? If your thinking was anywhere close to reality: the military would welcome criminals, the infantry would fill the majority of the ranks and be treated like cannon fodder, and very little time and money would be spent on training and support. The opposite is true.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  No, it came from a reading a history of the Crusades, which certain Kings and the Church did view at the time as a method of getting troublesome Knights out of Europe, or at least that is what is stated by many historians. edit - and why give up on a successful strategy? It pays to keep the experts in the use of force busy.
  - woodman 12y ago
    Well history is great, not repeating the same mistakes and all, but some events are more relevant than others :)
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      Actually, the parallels are striking. All sorts of dangerous idiots on all sides are heading for the big trapdoor erected over the completely and utterly predictable power vacuum we left in Iraq.
      - woodman 12y ago

Jtsummers 12y ago

Have you read this [0] article yet? Also worth checking out, available if you click on the author's name, are the various responses he's gotten to it. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/ http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-trag...

Jtsummers 12y ago

woodman 12y ago

The same can be said of firemen, who absolutely love their job. There is nothing wrong with questioning the actual utility or riotousness of an action, but predicating it on the feelings of the actor is illogical. Yes, the concept of a hatecrime, and the additional weight given, is illogical.

scotty79 12y ago

Isn't what the workaholics do considered a sacrifice? Even if they do it just because they need it and want it?