5 ms·

I'm all for changing the absurd system where tipping is practically required for one where a reasonable wage is paid and pre-factored into the cost of the servi

I'm all for changing the absurd system where tipping is practically required for one where a reasonable wage is paid and pre-factored into the cost of the service. But if we all just stopped tipping suddenly, it's the most vulnerable people who bear the brunt until the system adjusts. I think that's pretty morally suspect.

themartorana 12y ago
Many changes that end up being pretty good hurt the most vulnerable in the short term. The biggest example of this is the Industrial Revolution. It's tough to say whether you apply moral leanings towards no disruption at all vs. "in the long term" benefits to everyone, including the most vulnerable among us. I'm not going to offer an answer, because I'm not sure I have one. I don't want anyone to suffer, but I want everyone to be better off in the end. Cabbies seem like they're in the heart of every controversy these days - from medallions losing huge amounts of value to wage/tip adjustments. In the end, do we all benefit?
mc32 12y ago
A small sprinkle of restaurants[1] have begun trying an alternative where tips are disallowed but include some type of additional charge on your bill and in return the staff get paid a higher wage. According to another article this has resulted in better service from the staff --and that would seem to be opposite of what you might get from continental servers (who customarily don't get tips), so it bears watching. [1]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tipping-policy/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tip... PS. The strata of restaurant trying this approach might skew results, so, not sure what results one might get in a broad spectrum of restaurants.
- pmoriarty 12y ago
  You don't have to wait for the results to come in. Just go to Europe, where this has been standard practice for decades if not longer. For what it's worth, in my own personal experience and that of others I've talked with, the service in Europe is markedly worse than what you usually get in the US. But anecdotes like mine are too little to go on. I'd be interested to hear if there's been any cross-cultural research on the subject.
  - mc32 12y ago
    I thought that too, buut then I thought about Japan --and there they get paid near minimum wage (comparable to US minimum wage) but also have no tipping policy (or rather culture) and yet service tends to be great. So I think culture has a significant impact --and I wonder where US staff might fall; towards European apathy or Japanese pride in vocation.
    - pmoriarty 12y ago
      If they take pride in their work that might make me feel better, or it might make them feel better. But that alone is not going to put bread on their table.
  - monksy 12y ago
    Are you kidding me? I've had only a handful of bad service experiences in Europe compared to the numerous great ones. The Europeans tend not to keep coming back to your table to ask how you're doing, or if something is wrong. If there is something wrong with the meal they'll come because they're watching/paying attention.
    - rhino369 12y ago
      Most people want a waiter to come by because its rude to wave a waiter over. European service sucks.
      - jamespo 12y ago
        It's not rude at all to catch their eye, or are you using the finger clicking method?
      - DanBC 12y ago
        Personally I loathe the intrusive cloying fake-friendliness of US waiters. I've had a few pretty poor[1] experiences despite not eating out that often in the US. I have eaten out in the UK considerably more often and had fewer poor experiences. maybe it's just a cultural thing?
konstruktor 12y ago
So it is okay to deprive generations of future servers of a guaranteed livable wage, just because the current one will be affected temporarily?
- acjohnson55 12y ago
  That's not the only alternative. And if your answer personally is not to tip, I think you have to ask yourself whether you're not tipping has made an impact on the policy, is is your action just hurting the poor sap who happened to serve you with no connection to a broader movement to spark change?
goatforce5 12y ago
There's a cafe here in Toronto that adjoins a community centre that runs social programs, etc., and they have a tip jar next to the register. There's a sign that says something like "Our staff a paid a fair living wage. Any donations for the community centre are welcomed." or something.

themartorana 12y ago

Many changes that end up being pretty good hurt the most vulnerable in the short term. The biggest example of this is the Industrial Revolution. It's tough to say whether you apply moral leanings towards no disruption at all vs. "in the long term" benefits to everyone, including the most vulnerable among us. I'm not going to offer an answer, because I'm not sure I have one. I don't want anyone to suffer, but I want everyone to be better off in the end. Cabbies seem like they're in the heart of every controversy these days - from medallions losing huge amounts of value to wage/tip adjustments. In the end, do we all benefit?

mc32 12y ago

A small sprinkle of restaurants[1] have begun trying an alternative where tips are disallowed but include some type of additional charge on your bill and in return the staff get paid a higher wage. According to another article this has resulted in better service from the staff --and that would seem to be opposite of what you might get from continental servers (who customarily don't get tips), so it bears watching. [1]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tipping-policy/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tip... PS. The strata of restaurant trying this approach might skew results, so, not sure what results one might get in a broad spectrum of restaurants.

pmoriarty 12y ago
You don't have to wait for the results to come in. Just go to Europe, where this has been standard practice for decades if not longer. For what it's worth, in my own personal experience and that of others I've talked with, the service in Europe is markedly worse than what you usually get in the US. But anecdotes like mine are too little to go on. I'd be interested to hear if there's been any cross-cultural research on the subject.
- mc32 12y ago
  I thought that too, buut then I thought about Japan --and there they get paid near minimum wage (comparable to US minimum wage) but also have no tipping policy (or rather culture) and yet service tends to be great. So I think culture has a significant impact --and I wonder where US staff might fall; towards European apathy or Japanese pride in vocation.
  - pmoriarty 12y ago
    If they take pride in their work that might make me feel better, or it might make them feel better. But that alone is not going to put bread on their table.
- monksy 12y ago
  Are you kidding me? I've had only a handful of bad service experiences in Europe compared to the numerous great ones. The Europeans tend not to keep coming back to your table to ask how you're doing, or if something is wrong. If there is something wrong with the meal they'll come because they're watching/paying attention.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    Most people want a waiter to come by because its rude to wave a waiter over. European service sucks.
    - jamespo 12y ago
      It's not rude at all to catch their eye, or are you using the finger clicking method?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Personally I loathe the intrusive cloying fake-friendliness of US waiters. I've had a few pretty poor[1] experiences despite not eating out that often in the US. I have eaten out in the UK considerably more often and had fewer poor experiences. maybe it's just a cultural thing?

konstruktor 12y ago

So it is okay to deprive generations of future servers of a guaranteed livable wage, just because the current one will be affected temporarily?

acjohnson55 12y ago
That's not the only alternative. And if your answer personally is not to tip, I think you have to ask yourself whether you're not tipping has made an impact on the policy, is is your action just hurting the poor sap who happened to serve you with no connection to a broader movement to spark change?

goatforce5 12y ago

There's a cafe here in Toronto that adjoins a community centre that runs social programs, etc., and they have a tip jar next to the register. There's a sign that says something like "Our staff a paid a fair living wage. Any donations for the community centre are welcomed." or something.