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I thought this was a pretty blatant cheap trick the first time I saw it (similar to restaurants putting tip calculations on bills from 18-25% (which are usually

I thought this was a pretty blatant cheap trick the first time I saw it (similar to restaurants putting tip calculations on bills from 18-25% (which are usually post-tax no less!!)) and on the occasion I am in a cab always punch in "Other," or best option pay cash. Automatic deduction for cabbies who often tip themselves and hand you less change without asking - give me my change in full and I'll tip you, thanks. To add a data point on tipping amounts I would say I usually tip 10-15% for a good cab ride or less for a bad one, or even zero if the driver "screened" my fare (common from yellow cabs in Queens - keeping the doors locked and asking where you are going before letting you in, which is illegal) or takes unnecessary routes, blatantly excessive slowing to hit red lights, etc. I might venture into 20%+ for a good service ride to/from an airport. Restaurants I stay around 15% for fair or better service, 20% for good, much less than 15% requires the server to be noticably rude or inattentive. Sometimes I do feel like an outlier or cheapskate as the "norm" service for anything feels like it has become 20%, which I find a little ridiculous. I won't not tip because I don't "believe" in the culture of tipping, because all I would be doing is hurt mostly decent workers; at the same time I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it. I try to find a middle ground.

crmd 12y ago
>I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it. 30% and up is a high tip. 20% is not. Life is short. Be the guy/gal who puts smiles on strangers faces. You can do this by taking care of service staff.
- EC1 12y ago
  I can't wrap my head around tipping. Why do I have to pay extra? Why doesn't their employer pay them. Can someone explain tipping to me? Because apparently I'm the worst person on the planet for not tipping.
  - crmd 12y ago
    The theory is to incentivize awesome service by having each customer decide how much compensation to give based on the server's performance. Those who delight customers make more money, while whose who are bad at customer service make little money and are incentivized to leave the industry and do something not customer-facing.
    - ENGNR 12y ago
      How hard is it to bring someone a menu and then bring them the food they ask for? I don't want to be delighted by the service, I'm there for the food and people I'm there with.
      - jmccree 12y ago
        Have you ever worked at popular sit down restaurant during a dinner rush? It's a mad house... Not easy at all. Good service is knowing the menu and wine/drink list. Being able to provide recommendations and advice on what to order. Trying to write down all the orders at this table while you see an empty water glass and someone is taking 5 minutes to decide which salad to order and you know there's food for another table getting cold in the window. If you just want food and a place to sit, there's plenty of fast food/fast casual restaurants. If you go to a place with wait staff, it's because you are going to get waited on. A good wait person can be the difference in having a wonderful night or a horrible one.
        JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Waitstaff are critical, and should be trained. Good waitstaff are a joy (prompt, pleasant, know the menu and can make suggestions, preemptively help avoid problems, revisit but don't keep badgering you). However there's no night I don't cook that is 'horrible'. Its can be frustrating or amusing depending on my attitude. But if I'm sitting down and getting fed, then the rest is gravy.
  - js2 12y ago
    I tip folks in the service industry whenever I have a chance, not just wait staff. I'll tip mechanics, my postal delivery person, the guy who delivers firewood, the hotel maid, etc. The way I see it, it's a very small percentage of my income to someone doing a job I'm glad I don't have to do. I worked retail growing up and dealing with people down right sucks. I'm glad I can ao easily bring a smile to someone's face. When I get rude or incompetent service relative to the price point, I ask to speak to the manager, which I think is a better way to handle things.
    - EC1 12y ago
      I guess my struggle is internal then. I feel crappy about myself for being weak for tipping because I feel like I'm being scammed out of my own money via guilt given to me by their employer. And then I feel crappy if I don't tip.
      - acjohnson55 12y ago
        You should feel crappy if you don't tip. It's an "honor system" but the wages assume that people tip servers. I know, it's absurd, but that's the system. If you don't want to tip, please don't eat at places where waitstaff are paid a wage that presumes tips.
        thezilch 12y ago
        And what places are those? And how much?
        acjohnson55 12y ago
        I honestly don't know, and so I tip 18-20% everywhere, if I order a sit down meal. I order for pickup if I'm trying to eat out and save money.
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > And what places are those? What places don't assume that waitstaff are tipped? Fast food restaurants and in-grocery-store ready-to-eat food-service areas. And places that explicitly advertise prices with "service included" (though these are rare.)
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious. It's not complicated, tips in that situation aren't extra, they are part of the compensation of the entire staff of the restaurant (the waiters usually tip the bussers and the kitchen...). If you don't like the arrangement, you should refrain from eating in such places.
    - rahimnathwani 12y ago
      > It's not complicated It _is_ complicated. It's so complicated that (i) there are discussions on the internet about whether 15% or 20% or 25% is fair, and (ii) there are many specialised 'tip calculator' apps. When I walk into a restaurant, how much should I be expecting to pay for 'meets expectation' service? Is this a % of the bill, or a $ amount related to the amount of time I'm being served (a proxy for the amount of service I get)? Whatever your answer, are you confident that most other patrons of said restaurant would agree with your recommendation?
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        I didn't say tipping was a great system, I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it. I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated, but I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.
        rahimnathwani 12y ago
        > I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it. I expressed no opinion on this point. > I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated Even if I don't want external validation of what is fair, it is still complicated enough that I need to pull out a calculator after a date with my wife. > I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation. Agreed, and this is the reason I tip according to local norms when I'm in the US.
      - 12y ago
  - frandroid 12y ago
    Because you would not eat there if the employer paid decent wages and passed it on to you by charging 30% more than the "tipping" restaurant next door. The only way to get around this is to mandate higher minimum wages for hospitality workers, putting every restaurant on a level playing field. This is what they do in Australia and many European countries.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - innguest 12y ago
      Why must their new mandated wages be higher than the minimum wage? We already have the minimum wage, and I assume that's what it's for? Are hospitality workers better than other minimum wage workers?
- jmccree 12y ago
  Every tipping thread on HN becomes an example of why the rest of the world hates the SV/startup community. You have people who likely make more in one day than the wait person will make all week arguing over whether 15% or 20% to tip. An extra $5-10 is likely pocket change for someone on HN, but could make someone in the service industry's day. 20% is the default tip for good service. 30% and above is a high tip. If you have bad service, ask to speak to a manager. I'm embarrassed by the lack of empathy shown in this thread.
DanBC 12y ago
> keeping the doors locked and asking where you are going before letting you in, which is illegal) Just out of interest: do you ever report those cabs?
- girvo 12y ago
  Different country, I'm in Australia, but I've reported many cabs for breaking various rules (and laws) as well as being outright hostile. I have an intense dislike of our cab duopoly in Brisbane, but to both of the companies' credit, they appreciated the heads-up when it came to dangerous, rude or illegal drivers. I highly recommend others report cabbies who break the rules, as if we don't they will never improve.
  - ekanes 12y ago
    This is a big reason that Uber and Lyft are a big deal - feedback systems are so ingrained that a bad driver won't last long.
- infinotize 12y ago
  I never have in maybe half a dozen times, but if I and more people did it would happen less. I believe the consequences to the driver are quite steep. Usually if you are refused and not in the cab yet the driver won't stick around for you to get a good look at the plate/medallion/driver info. Another anecdote: I had a cab passenger open their door into my car once and while chatting with said passenger the driver (who saw what had happened) sped off as soon as the door was shut.
madeofpalk 12y ago
> less than 15% requires the server to be noticably rude or inattentive. As an Australian, in a country that doesn't have a culture of tipping, I find it very amusing that you would tip a server who was noticably rude. Edit: For context as well, tipping is on the rise up in Australia, but only at classier/fancier/modern/hipster places, and the extent of a tip would be to round up to nearest $10 (or note, if paying cash)
- mikeash 12y ago
  A low tip can send a stronger message than no tip. If I was really upset with a waiter for some reason, a one-cent tip would convey my displeasure much better than leaving nothing at all. Not that I've had occasion to do this.
- infinotize 12y ago
  See also above poster who feels 20% is not a high tip! To be fair most tipped workers do not make enough without tips and are allowed to be paid well under the minimum wage if they work in a tipping industry, so by not tipping at all you are really screwing them over.
- meowface 12y ago
  Waiters in the US make an average of $4.63 and median of $4.00 per hour [1] from their employer in wages. They make the rest of their income in tips. If you don't tip, you're potentially taking a not insignificant chunk out of their pay for the day. In the US, it takes fairly extreme circumstances to not tip (by most people's standards at least; some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group), like if the service was extremely bad or the waiter was insulting or hostile. Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period, so it's not completely insane, but it's still a rather weird system. [1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Hourly_Rate http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Ho...
  - jonesdc 12y ago
    At first I thought your comment may have been flawed but you clearly recognized that the restaurant owner must cover the pay difference. How is the average/median less than the federally mandated minimum wage law? Could the waiters themselves be under reporting tips?
shostack 12y ago
"Automatic deduction for cabbies who often tip themselves and hand you less change without asking - give me my change in full and I'll tip you, thanks." Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing?
- meepmorp 12y ago
  > Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing? I've actually never seen anyone pay for a cab any other way but asking for an amount of change back (well, besides just giving them the amount you want to give them and getting out of the cab).

crmd 12y ago

>I won't default to a high tip for average service just because other people are doing it. 30% and up is a high tip. 20% is not. Life is short. Be the guy/gal who puts smiles on strangers faces. You can do this by taking care of service staff.

EC1 12y ago
I can't wrap my head around tipping. Why do I have to pay extra? Why doesn't their employer pay them. Can someone explain tipping to me? Because apparently I'm the worst person on the planet for not tipping.
- crmd 12y ago
  The theory is to incentivize awesome service by having each customer decide how much compensation to give based on the server's performance. Those who delight customers make more money, while whose who are bad at customer service make little money and are incentivized to leave the industry and do something not customer-facing.
  - ENGNR 12y ago
    How hard is it to bring someone a menu and then bring them the food they ask for? I don't want to be delighted by the service, I'm there for the food and people I'm there with.
    - jmccree 12y ago
      Have you ever worked at popular sit down restaurant during a dinner rush? It's a mad house... Not easy at all. Good service is knowing the menu and wine/drink list. Being able to provide recommendations and advice on what to order. Trying to write down all the orders at this table while you see an empty water glass and someone is taking 5 minutes to decide which salad to order and you know there's food for another table getting cold in the window. If you just want food and a place to sit, there's plenty of fast food/fast casual restaurants. If you go to a place with wait staff, it's because you are going to get waited on. A good wait person can be the difference in having a wonderful night or a horrible one.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Waitstaff are critical, and should be trained. Good waitstaff are a joy (prompt, pleasant, know the menu and can make suggestions, preemptively help avoid problems, revisit but don't keep badgering you). However there's no night I don't cook that is 'horrible'. Its can be frustrating or amusing depending on my attitude. But if I'm sitting down and getting fed, then the rest is gravy.
- js2 12y ago
  I tip folks in the service industry whenever I have a chance, not just wait staff. I'll tip mechanics, my postal delivery person, the guy who delivers firewood, the hotel maid, etc. The way I see it, it's a very small percentage of my income to someone doing a job I'm glad I don't have to do. I worked retail growing up and dealing with people down right sucks. I'm glad I can ao easily bring a smile to someone's face. When I get rude or incompetent service relative to the price point, I ask to speak to the manager, which I think is a better way to handle things.
  - EC1 12y ago
    I guess my struggle is internal then. I feel crappy about myself for being weak for tipping because I feel like I'm being scammed out of my own money via guilt given to me by their employer. And then I feel crappy if I don't tip.
    - acjohnson55 12y ago
      You should feel crappy if you don't tip. It's an "honor system" but the wages assume that people tip servers. I know, it's absurd, but that's the system. If you don't want to tip, please don't eat at places where waitstaff are paid a wage that presumes tips.
      - thezilch 12y ago
        And what places are those? And how much?
        acjohnson55 12y ago
        I honestly don't know, and so I tip 18-20% everywhere, if I order a sit down meal. I order for pickup if I'm trying to eat out and save money.
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > And what places are those? What places don't assume that waitstaff are tipped? Fast food restaurants and in-grocery-store ready-to-eat food-service areas. And places that explicitly advertise prices with "service included" (though these are rare.)
- maxerickson 12y ago
  If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious. It's not complicated, tips in that situation aren't extra, they are part of the compensation of the entire staff of the restaurant (the waiters usually tip the bussers and the kitchen...). If you don't like the arrangement, you should refrain from eating in such places.
  - rahimnathwani 12y ago
    > It's not complicated It _is_ complicated. It's so complicated that (i) there are discussions on the internet about whether 15% or 20% or 25% is fair, and (ii) there are many specialised 'tip calculator' apps. When I walk into a restaurant, how much should I be expecting to pay for 'meets expectation' service? Is this a % of the bill, or a $ amount related to the amount of time I'm being served (a proxy for the amount of service I get)? Whatever your answer, are you confident that most other patrons of said restaurant would agree with your recommendation?
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I didn't say tipping was a great system, I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it. I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated, but I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.
      - rahimnathwani 12y ago
        > I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it. I expressed no opinion on this point. > I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated Even if I don't want external validation of what is fair, it is still complicated enough that I need to pull out a calculator after a date with my wife. > I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation. Agreed, and this is the reason I tip according to local norms when I'm in the US.
    - 12y ago
- frandroid 12y ago
  Because you would not eat there if the employer paid decent wages and passed it on to you by charging 30% more than the "tipping" restaurant next door. The only way to get around this is to mandate higher minimum wages for hospitality workers, putting every restaurant on a level playing field. This is what they do in Australia and many European countries.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - innguest 12y ago
    Why must their new mandated wages be higher than the minimum wage? We already have the minimum wage, and I assume that's what it's for? Are hospitality workers better than other minimum wage workers?
jmccree 12y ago
Every tipping thread on HN becomes an example of why the rest of the world hates the SV/startup community. You have people who likely make more in one day than the wait person will make all week arguing over whether 15% or 20% to tip. An extra $5-10 is likely pocket change for someone on HN, but could make someone in the service industry's day. 20% is the default tip for good service. 30% and above is a high tip. If you have bad service, ask to speak to a manager. I'm embarrassed by the lack of empathy shown in this thread.

DanBC 12y ago

> keeping the doors locked and asking where you are going before letting you in, which is illegal) Just out of interest: do you ever report those cabs?

girvo 12y ago
Different country, I'm in Australia, but I've reported many cabs for breaking various rules (and laws) as well as being outright hostile. I have an intense dislike of our cab duopoly in Brisbane, but to both of the companies' credit, they appreciated the heads-up when it came to dangerous, rude or illegal drivers. I highly recommend others report cabbies who break the rules, as if we don't they will never improve.
- ekanes 12y ago
  This is a big reason that Uber and Lyft are a big deal - feedback systems are so ingrained that a bad driver won't last long.
infinotize 12y ago
I never have in maybe half a dozen times, but if I and more people did it would happen less. I believe the consequences to the driver are quite steep. Usually if you are refused and not in the cab yet the driver won't stick around for you to get a good look at the plate/medallion/driver info. Another anecdote: I had a cab passenger open their door into my car once and while chatting with said passenger the driver (who saw what had happened) sped off as soon as the door was shut.

madeofpalk 12y ago

> less than 15% requires the server to be noticably rude or inattentive. As an Australian, in a country that doesn't have a culture of tipping, I find it very amusing that you would tip a server who was noticably rude. Edit: For context as well, tipping is on the rise up in Australia, but only at classier/fancier/modern/hipster places, and the extent of a tip would be to round up to nearest $10 (or note, if paying cash)

mikeash 12y ago
A low tip can send a stronger message than no tip. If I was really upset with a waiter for some reason, a one-cent tip would convey my displeasure much better than leaving nothing at all. Not that I've had occasion to do this.
infinotize 12y ago
See also above poster who feels 20% is not a high tip! To be fair most tipped workers do not make enough without tips and are allowed to be paid well under the minimum wage if they work in a tipping industry, so by not tipping at all you are really screwing them over.
meowface 12y ago
Waiters in the US make an average of $4.63 and median of $4.00 per hour [1] from their employer in wages. They make the rest of their income in tips. If you don't tip, you're potentially taking a not insignificant chunk out of their pay for the day. In the US, it takes fairly extreme circumstances to not tip (by most people's standards at least; some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group), like if the service was extremely bad or the waiter was insulting or hostile. Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period, so it's not completely insane, but it's still a rather weird system. [1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Hourly_Rate http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Ho...
- jonesdc 12y ago
  At first I thought your comment may have been flawed but you clearly recognized that the restaurant owner must cover the pay difference. How is the average/median less than the federally mandated minimum wage law? Could the waiters themselves be under reporting tips?

shostack 12y ago

"Automatic deduction for cabbies who often tip themselves and hand you less change without asking - give me my change in full and I'll tip you, thanks." Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing?

meepmorp 12y ago
> Couldn't that be entirely (and easily) avoided by simply handing them cash and asking for a specific amount back? Ie. fare is $10 and you want to give a $2 tip, you hand them a $20 and ask for $8 back. Is there a benefit to not asking for a specific amount back that I'm missing? I've actually never seen anyone pay for a cab any other way but asking for an amount of change back (well, besides just giving them the amount you want to give them and getting out of the cab).