5 ms·

I agree with this. Do not hire a PM who can't code, doesn't have design experience, and can't bring business in the door. Big company PM experience is not an as

I agree with this. Do not hire a PM who can't code, doesn't have design experience, and can't bring business in the door. Big company PM experience is not an asset here. I was a Microsoft PM before, and it did not prepare me one bit for the rigors of startup life. All startups need three things: 1) coding, 2) product design, 3) hustle. Ideally everyone can do all three. The ideal PM can do both #2 and #3.

tptacek 17y ago
At MSFT, were you "program", "project", or "product"? My understanding, three very different, frequently confused roles there.
- rantfoil 17y ago
  Program Manager -- it was closest to the metal (work day to day with engineers, designers, testers, and marketing) -- but was far too much paper pushing.
  - jlees 17y ago
    I was a program manager intern; compared to what I now know about product management, it was too far from actual code and too far from actual users to really be useful. However, as an internship it taught me a hell of a lot.
mikeryan 17y ago
I'm just wondering why you find it necessary for a PM to code? I've seen this sentiment a lot around HN and find it curious. I've worked with many Product Managers were fairly technical but weren't going to do any coding (or architecture).
- maukdaddy 17y ago
  The prevailing attitude on HN is that all founders and early employees at a startup must be coders. As a technical person with a business background (and MBA in progress) I find this attitude short-sighted, since technical employees with business background can bring a LOT of value to a startup vs hiring yet another programmer.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > The prevailing attitude on HN is that all founders and early employees at a startup must be coders. That's not quite right, but code is the product. > As a technical person with a business background (and MBA in progress) I find this attitude short-sighted, since technical employees with business background can bring a LOT of value to a startup vs hiring yet another programmer. I'll bite - what value do you bring that exceeds the value of a coder? I'll assume that you're not coding, so be specific about what that business background provides. Note - coders can talk with customers, get requirements, etc. Some of us own suits and have some VC "greenstamps" to cash in.
    - anamax 17y ago
      I forgot to ask. When is that value "full-time" and what should happen before then? While this whole line of disucssion has been about "code", I'm interested in how things might be different when for "not software" products.
  - rantfoil 17y ago
    I agree with you -- not everyone has to code. I am not against non-technical founders at all. The great nontech cofounders are people who can either design or hustle with the best of them. Those are the phenomenal non-technical cofounders. Note: MBA does not a hustler make. MBAs are made to be great at working for others in larger organizations. But getting an MBA does not preclude hustle, nor value to a startup.
- gruseom 17y ago
  He didn't mean a PM has to do all three things, just one of them, or ideally two. The ambiguity of Boolean expressions in English is strangely fascinating.
- rantfoil 17y ago
  They don't have to code, they just have to be able to do everything else not coding. When you're starting out (like 2 or 3 people) -- it's ideal if everyone can move the needle in big ways. A PM at that stage (someone who just writes specs / defines the product) becomes dead weight if they can't also design or hustle.

tptacek 17y ago

At MSFT, were you "program", "project", or "product"? My understanding, three very different, frequently confused roles there.

rantfoil 17y ago
Program Manager -- it was closest to the metal (work day to day with engineers, designers, testers, and marketing) -- but was far too much paper pushing.
- jlees 17y ago
  I was a program manager intern; compared to what I now know about product management, it was too far from actual code and too far from actual users to really be useful. However, as an internship it taught me a hell of a lot.

mikeryan 17y ago

I'm just wondering why you find it necessary for a PM to code? I've seen this sentiment a lot around HN and find it curious. I've worked with many Product Managers were fairly technical but weren't going to do any coding (or architecture).

maukdaddy 17y ago
The prevailing attitude on HN is that all founders and early employees at a startup must be coders. As a technical person with a business background (and MBA in progress) I find this attitude short-sighted, since technical employees with business background can bring a LOT of value to a startup vs hiring yet another programmer.
- anamax 17y ago
  > The prevailing attitude on HN is that all founders and early employees at a startup must be coders. That's not quite right, but code is the product. > As a technical person with a business background (and MBA in progress) I find this attitude short-sighted, since technical employees with business background can bring a LOT of value to a startup vs hiring yet another programmer. I'll bite - what value do you bring that exceeds the value of a coder? I'll assume that you're not coding, so be specific about what that business background provides. Note - coders can talk with customers, get requirements, etc. Some of us own suits and have some VC "greenstamps" to cash in.
  - anamax 17y ago
    I forgot to ask. When is that value "full-time" and what should happen before then? While this whole line of disucssion has been about "code", I'm interested in how things might be different when for "not software" products.
- rantfoil 17y ago
  I agree with you -- not everyone has to code. I am not against non-technical founders at all. The great nontech cofounders are people who can either design or hustle with the best of them. Those are the phenomenal non-technical cofounders. Note: MBA does not a hustler make. MBAs are made to be great at working for others in larger organizations. But getting an MBA does not preclude hustle, nor value to a startup.
gruseom 17y ago
He didn't mean a PM has to do all three things, just one of them, or ideally two. The ambiguity of Boolean expressions in English is strangely fascinating.
rantfoil 17y ago
They don't have to code, they just have to be able to do everything else not coding. When you're starting out (like 2 or 3 people) -- it's ideal if everyone can move the needle in big ways. A PM at that stage (someone who just writes specs / defines the product) becomes dead weight if they can't also design or hustle.