7 ms·

Adobe on Iphone: Will Apple allow it?

10 points by jeremychone 17y ago

SamAtt 17y ago
I think people over-dramatize this issue. I think everyone, at Apple and Adobe, knows Flash/Air will eventually be on the iPhone. I don't think there's any doubt. What Apple's doing now is trying to drag their feet as long as possible. Because the longer they can hold out the more momentum they get. Both in Apps written specifically for the iPhone and video on the web (Quicktime gains more and more marketshare as more people use the iPhone to view video) That's the beauty of the situation. Apple can drag their feet for a few more years and if the Adobe mobile platform starts to gain momentum they can support it and have all the advantages in an instant.
- bdotdub 17y ago
  On the contrary, I don't think Flash/Air will ever be on the iPhone. They have the upper hand over the whole situation and have invested a lot in Flash alternatives including HTML5 (via WebKit) and video with MP4. In addition, the battery suck will ruin the (already short) battery life, and I don't think they will compromise the user experience for Flash
  - SamAtt 17y ago
    Your logic only works if (a) Flash begins to fade and (b) Apple remains far ahead of all its competitors indefinately. Because in the end every other phone is going to support Flash and Apple is going to have to explain to iPhone users why phones from Windows Mobile and Google can view the entire web while iPhone users can't. As for alternatives like HTML 5 we're at least a decade away from widespread use of those (since there are people who wait forever to upgrade their browser). So I don't see Apple being able to stall for that long.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  We are lucky that Microsoft is not doing the same as Apple, otherwise, otherwise we would still be stuck with compuserve and Microsoft paint.
- tjogin 17y ago
  Adobe are still, to this day, incapable of producing a performant Flash runtime for Linux and Mac OS X — in spite of this having been a known issue for like a decade. Why on god's green earth would they suddenly produce a performant Flash runtime for the iPhone? Even if Apple wants Flash on the iPhone, and that's not a certainty (or even likely if you ask me), but even if they do, they sure as hell are not going to settle for something as poor as what they've gotten for Mac OS X. Apple has standards, and in their view it's better to not have anything at all, than to have something that is bad.
  - SamAtt 17y ago
    As with bdotdub's response to my comment your logic only works if Apple runs the show indefinately. Because every other major SmartPhone OS has announced Flash support. Meaning Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone. Regardless of what you think of Microsoft and Google I guarantee you they will some day be competitive. Apple may still maintain the lead but not the dramatic one they have now. Once those two are competitve Apple won't be able to dictate terms like they do now.
    - tjogin 17y ago
      > Meaning Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone. Piss poor performance.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone I wouldn't be so sure of that. What is Flash really used for? Video? The iPhone already plays back h.264, the format used for high-quality Flash streaming. Most of the major video sites either serve up iPhone-tailored versions which stream the video directly (e.g. http://iphone.dailymotion.com http://iphone.dailymotion.com) or have native applications that do the same (e.g. the YouTube app that the iPhone has had from the start). The result is better performance, better battery life, better quality and better overall experience, all without using Flash. Games? The iPhone has no shortage of games, and with Flash CS5, the same games can be deployed as native applications, where they will undoubtedly perform better. Many Flash games designed for desktops aren't very playable on a smartphone anyway. Aside from those, the most commonly-encountered uses of Flash are obnoxious animations and sites built entirely in Flash, neither of which would seem to inspire demand. What's left? This isn't to say that Flash adds nothing, only that it seem like such an obvious necessity as it does in a desktop browser.
ptomato 17y ago
"Just for my curiosity, I would love to understand how Adobe managed to get the specs of the iPhone byte-code." It isn't bytecode, it is a binary on a commonly used platform (ARM). But in general, somewhat a moot point seeing that Flash apps compiled using this method are already in the app store at present, as well as a variety of other applications made using things that aren't Apple's SDK. As long as you abide by their restrictions it doesn't look like apple cares what you program in.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  Ok, fair enough. I got confused about the bytecode. BTW, John's comment is interesting: http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-apple-allow-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4494 http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-appl...
jsz0 17y ago
"Developers also must get the application approved by Apple in order to distribute it. Microsoft would not have even dared to dream of such a market scheme." Yes they would. It's called Xbox and Zune HD.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  Interesting you did not mention Windows Mobile. It is not healthy to have the OS maker deciding what application can or cannot be distributed for its OS.
  - tjogin 17y ago
    Why is it so much less healthy for mobile phones than it is for consoles? I mean, the difference is staggering: Apple gets cussed out daily because of how closed their iPhone app distribution system is — but nobody is wasting a single breath about Microsoft's Xbox equivalent. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's just because were used to one, and not the other.
    - jsz0 17y ago
      Exactly. I don't want to argue one way or another if it's a good thing (let the market decide) but I am getting ever more annoyed at people who buy an iPhone, knowing fully well it's a closed platform, when open alternatives exist. It's not only hypocritical but its hurting the open alternatives too. If you buy any closed system, you support closed systems. No number of outraged blog posts can change that fact.
      - jeremychone 17y ago
        wow, 200% agree. Technologist that promotes open system should not buy iPhone.
GHFigs 17y ago
The author doesn't seem to be aware that there are already applications created this way that have been approved for sale by Apple. Given that it does not trigger any of the objections Apple has previously had about Flash on the iPhone--which universally revolve around the Flash runtime, specifically in the browser--I don't see why anybody should be surprised by that. It only seems improbable if you make a lot of second-guessing about their motives rather than taking them at their word.
- jeremychone 17y ago
  To my understanding most non-XCode iPhone solution requires XCode at some point. Adobe is the only one that goes directly to .ipa. See John's comment: http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-apple-allow-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4494 http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-appl...
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    How is that relevant to what I said? Why would Apple have a problem with people not using Xcode? As long as you're delivering an appropriately signed binary, I don't see how it would make any difference to them what IDE you used.
    - jeremychone 17y ago
      Time will tell. Right now Adobe is bypassing entirely Apple workflow to produce a iPhone Apps. Other tools play along. Will see what will happen. I would be happy to be wrong on this one.
      - GHFigs 17y ago
        You are wrong, that's what I'm saying. Apple has already approved applications built with Flash CS5. I don't understand what your basis for thinking they would have a problem with it is. Adobe is producing native ARM code, not including a separate runtime, you still have to be in Apple's developer program, and still have to use Apple-issued code signing certificates. You're not bypassing anything that Apple actually cares about.
rubymaverick 17y ago
Had to stop reading at this: "Apple is undeniably the most proprietary and closed technology company in the software industry. In fact, Apple makes companies like Microsoft and Adobe look like nonprofit open source organizations in comparison" http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/
- jeremychone 17y ago
  Are you really falling for this marketing scam? Every company does open source or have something prefixed with "open" nowadays. Apple is the only software company that lock the service, software, and hardware together. Microsoft would have never been able to pull the iStore market scam. But somehow, Apple can do it. Apple can create an ecosystem where they are the only gate keeper of what people can create and distribute. I really like Software, and for what I am concern, Apple's iPhone/iStore system is a disease for the software and Internet industry. If Microsoft, Palm, and Android, would start doing the same, then we would be in a world where innovation will be gated by the incumbents. No more Firefox, no more Skype.
  - tjogin 17y ago
    They're really not that different if you look at a wider perspective than just mobile phones. Microsoft's Xbox is as closed a system, if not even more so. Not so coincidentally, their Xbox is also far more robust and less bug prone than their PC counterpart. That's the nature of closed systems. Apple are not interested in doing anything lackluster — from their perspective and according to their priorities, that is. It's just not in their nature to compromise with quality, hence you get a bunch of other compromises instead, all of which are well-known.
    - snprbob86 17y ago
      "It's just not in their nature to compromise with quality" points to the key distinction here. Apple is more open than most with output, but as closed as they reasonably can be with input. They are the gatekeepers for their ecosystem.
    - 17y ago
tlrobinson 17y ago
"iPhone bytecode", eh? Guess that's what happens when "Enterprise Web 2.0 Experts" talk about things that aren't "Enterprise Web 2.0"...
- jeremychone 17y ago
  Ok, fair enough, I removed the reference about the bytecode. I have been too long in the Adobe, Java, and Microsoft world and think that everything is bytecode. Nice joke about the "Enterprise Web 2.0 Experts." Ironically, I was very involved in 2000 in the mobile space, before the "enterprise Web 2.0" stuff.

10 points by jeremychone 17y ago

I think people over-dramatize this issue. I think everyone, at Apple and Adobe, knows Flash/Air will eventually be on the iPhone. I don't think there's any doubt. What Apple's doing now is trying to drag their feet as long as possible. Because the longer they can hold out the more momentum they get. Both in Apps written specifically for the iPhone and video on the web (Quicktime gains more and more marketshare as more people use the iPhone to view video) That's the beauty of the situation. Apple can drag their feet for a few more years and if the Adobe mobile platform starts to gain momentum they can support it and have all the advantages in an instant.

bdotdub 17y ago
On the contrary, I don't think Flash/Air will ever be on the iPhone. They have the upper hand over the whole situation and have invested a lot in Flash alternatives including HTML5 (via WebKit) and video with MP4. In addition, the battery suck will ruin the (already short) battery life, and I don't think they will compromise the user experience for Flash
- SamAtt 17y ago
  Your logic only works if (a) Flash begins to fade and (b) Apple remains far ahead of all its competitors indefinately. Because in the end every other phone is going to support Flash and Apple is going to have to explain to iPhone users why phones from Windows Mobile and Google can view the entire web while iPhone users can't. As for alternatives like HTML 5 we're at least a decade away from widespread use of those (since there are people who wait forever to upgrade their browser). So I don't see Apple being able to stall for that long.
jeremychone 17y ago
We are lucky that Microsoft is not doing the same as Apple, otherwise, otherwise we would still be stuck with compuserve and Microsoft paint.
tjogin 17y ago
Adobe are still, to this day, incapable of producing a performant Flash runtime for Linux and Mac OS X — in spite of this having been a known issue for like a decade. Why on god's green earth would they suddenly produce a performant Flash runtime for the iPhone? Even if Apple wants Flash on the iPhone, and that's not a certainty (or even likely if you ask me), but even if they do, they sure as hell are not going to settle for something as poor as what they've gotten for Mac OS X. Apple has standards, and in their view it's better to not have anything at all, than to have something that is bad.
- SamAtt 17y ago
  As with bdotdub's response to my comment your logic only works if Apple runs the show indefinately. Because every other major SmartPhone OS has announced Flash support. Meaning Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone. Regardless of what you think of Microsoft and Google I guarantee you they will some day be competitive. Apple may still maintain the lead but not the dramatic one they have now. Once those two are competitve Apple won't be able to dictate terms like they do now.
  - tjogin 17y ago
    > Meaning Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone. Piss poor performance.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    Apple will have to justify why they're keeping Flash off the iPhone I wouldn't be so sure of that. What is Flash really used for? Video? The iPhone already plays back h.264, the format used for high-quality Flash streaming. Most of the major video sites either serve up iPhone-tailored versions which stream the video directly (e.g. http://iphone.dailymotion.com http://iphone.dailymotion.com) or have native applications that do the same (e.g. the YouTube app that the iPhone has had from the start). The result is better performance, better battery life, better quality and better overall experience, all without using Flash. Games? The iPhone has no shortage of games, and with Flash CS5, the same games can be deployed as native applications, where they will undoubtedly perform better. Many Flash games designed for desktops aren't very playable on a smartphone anyway. Aside from those, the most commonly-encountered uses of Flash are obnoxious animations and sites built entirely in Flash, neither of which would seem to inspire demand. What's left? This isn't to say that Flash adds nothing, only that it seem like such an obvious necessity as it does in a desktop browser.

ptomato 17y ago

"Just for my curiosity, I would love to understand how Adobe managed to get the specs of the iPhone byte-code." It isn't bytecode, it is a binary on a commonly used platform (ARM). But in general, somewhat a moot point seeing that Flash apps compiled using this method are already in the app store at present, as well as a variety of other applications made using things that aren't Apple's SDK. As long as you abide by their restrictions it doesn't look like apple cares what you program in.

jeremychone 17y ago
Ok, fair enough. I got confused about the bytecode. BTW, John's comment is interesting: http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-apple-allow-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4494 http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-appl...

jsz0 17y ago

"Developers also must get the application approved by Apple in order to distribute it. Microsoft would not have even dared to dream of such a market scheme." Yes they would. It's called Xbox and Zune HD.

jeremychone 17y ago
Interesting you did not mention Windows Mobile. It is not healthy to have the OS maker deciding what application can or cannot be distributed for its OS.
- tjogin 17y ago
  Why is it so much less healthy for mobile phones than it is for consoles? I mean, the difference is staggering: Apple gets cussed out daily because of how closed their iPhone app distribution system is — but nobody is wasting a single breath about Microsoft's Xbox equivalent. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's just because were used to one, and not the other.
  - jsz0 17y ago
    Exactly. I don't want to argue one way or another if it's a good thing (let the market decide) but I am getting ever more annoyed at people who buy an iPhone, knowing fully well it's a closed platform, when open alternatives exist. It's not only hypocritical but its hurting the open alternatives too. If you buy any closed system, you support closed systems. No number of outraged blog posts can change that fact.
    - jeremychone 17y ago
      wow, 200% agree. Technologist that promotes open system should not buy iPhone.

GHFigs 17y ago

The author doesn't seem to be aware that there are already applications created this way that have been approved for sale by Apple. Given that it does not trigger any of the objections Apple has previously had about Flash on the iPhone--which universally revolve around the Flash runtime, specifically in the browser--I don't see why anybody should be surprised by that. It only seems improbable if you make a lot of second-guessing about their motives rather than taking them at their word.

jeremychone 17y ago
To my understanding most non-XCode iPhone solution requires XCode at some point. Adobe is the only one that goes directly to .ipa. See John's comment: http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-apple-allow-it/comment-page-1/#comment-4494 http://www.bitsandbuzz.com/article/adobe-on-iphone-will-appl...
- GHFigs 17y ago
  How is that relevant to what I said? Why would Apple have a problem with people not using Xcode? As long as you're delivering an appropriately signed binary, I don't see how it would make any difference to them what IDE you used.
  - jeremychone 17y ago
    Time will tell. Right now Adobe is bypassing entirely Apple workflow to produce a iPhone Apps. Other tools play along. Will see what will happen. I would be happy to be wrong on this one.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      You are wrong, that's what I'm saying. Apple has already approved applications built with Flash CS5. I don't understand what your basis for thinking they would have a problem with it is. Adobe is producing native ARM code, not including a separate runtime, you still have to be in Apple's developer program, and still have to use Apple-issued code signing certificates. You're not bypassing anything that Apple actually cares about.

rubymaverick 17y ago

Had to stop reading at this: "Apple is undeniably the most proprietary and closed technology company in the software industry. In fact, Apple makes companies like Microsoft and Adobe look like nonprofit open source organizations in comparison" http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/

jeremychone 17y ago
Are you really falling for this marketing scam? Every company does open source or have something prefixed with "open" nowadays. Apple is the only software company that lock the service, software, and hardware together. Microsoft would have never been able to pull the iStore market scam. But somehow, Apple can do it. Apple can create an ecosystem where they are the only gate keeper of what people can create and distribute. I really like Software, and for what I am concern, Apple's iPhone/iStore system is a disease for the software and Internet industry. If Microsoft, Palm, and Android, would start doing the same, then we would be in a world where innovation will be gated by the incumbents. No more Firefox, no more Skype.
- tjogin 17y ago
  They're really not that different if you look at a wider perspective than just mobile phones. Microsoft's Xbox is as closed a system, if not even more so. Not so coincidentally, their Xbox is also far more robust and less bug prone than their PC counterpart. That's the nature of closed systems. Apple are not interested in doing anything lackluster — from their perspective and according to their priorities, that is. It's just not in their nature to compromise with quality, hence you get a bunch of other compromises instead, all of which are well-known.
  - snprbob86 17y ago
    "It's just not in their nature to compromise with quality" points to the key distinction here. Apple is more open than most with output, but as closed as they reasonably can be with input. They are the gatekeepers for their ecosystem.
  - 17y ago

tlrobinson 17y ago

"iPhone bytecode", eh? Guess that's what happens when "Enterprise Web 2.0 Experts" talk about things that aren't "Enterprise Web 2.0"...

jeremychone 17y ago
Ok, fair enough, I removed the reference about the bytecode. I have been too long in the Adobe, Java, and Microsoft world and think that everything is bytecode. Nice joke about the "Enterprise Web 2.0 Experts." Ironically, I was very involved in 2000 in the mobile space, before the "enterprise Web 2.0" stuff.