5 ms·

I disagree, you did not see the same amount of complaints with snow lion. Observational and anecdotal experiences are still experiences and are evidence that so

I disagree, you did not see the same amount of complaints with snow lion. Observational and anecdotal experiences are still experiences and are evidence that something is going on. If you owned a restaurant and suddenly your customers started complaining after you changed your recipes, would you still think it is nothing to worry about? And just because Ubuntu sucks worse than OSX, does not mean that OSX is not starting to suck.

pdabbadabba 12y ago
> snow lion ...Snow Leopard? The problem with your response is that I don't know that anyone has ever actually provided reliable evidence that the number of complaints has gone up. GP's view, which I share, is that people always complain about new releases, forgetting that the previous release had its problems as well. As GP said, bad headlines are easier to make than good ones. Simply reiterating that you think the previous release had fewer problems, and that there are anecdotes out there about problems in the current release, is hardly a refutation of this. This is entirely consistent with GP's view. I for one have experienced no significant change in reliability on the road from Snow Leopard to Yosemite (for what that's worth).
- toyg 12y ago
  > people always complain about new releases, forgetting that the previous release had its problems as well It might be true, but this attitude makes it very hard for developers not to discount all complaints, including ones grounded in reality. Just because people are paranoid about new releases being crap, it doesn't mean that they are not crap. Personally, I've experienced a number of really bad bugs in Yosemite. One of the most annoying is four-finger swipes to bring up launchpad: the "blur" animation starts and then just hangs midway, leaving a half-transparent launchpad that works with keyboard controls but not mouse-clicks. Or the infamous "backbreak", where you do two-finger swipes to go back in a browser window and somehow it fails mid-way, leaving an unusable browser page and breaking all two-finger gestures until you close that window (not tab, the whole window). And of course the awful dark corners on the volume icon once you disable transparencies, something you have to do to maintain a decent framerate on a two-year MBP-retina that was perfectly capable to handle all this up to and including Mavericks. And let's not even talk about the wifi dns bug, which I've lost any hope to see permanently fixed in my lifetime. These are bad because they affect very visible UI elements used hundreds or thousands of time per day; the sort of thing that used to be rock-solid and did not significantly change in new releases. I would understand if a newish feature like Finder tabs had a few bugs, but not trackpad gestures that have been there, working fine, for years.
  - mhuffman 12y ago
    Holy shit! Thanks for the tip! My MBP is only a little over one year old, but disabling transparencies gave a peppy speed-up. I have also noticed a more "sensitive" left-swipe on the trackpad since Yosemite -- it is infuriating to be constantly trying to scroll down a page and have it send my back a page in a browser.
  - Poiesis 12y ago
    Wifi DNS bug? Thanks for putting a name to a very persistent annoying problem in this household with--holy crap--12 Apple devices. Also thanks for that Launchpad description. Keeps happening to my kids and I couldn't figure out why. I'm really disappointed in Apple. I'd really rather have reliable wifi than, say, Continuity.
  - gurkendoktor 12y ago
    > Or the infamous "backbreak", where you do two-finger swipes to go back in a browser window and somehow it fails mid-way, leaving an unusable browser page and breaking all two-finger gestures until you close that window (not tab, the whole window). This bug is driving me crazy on 10.9.5, along with a couple of other issues. Sadly not limited to Yosemite. (I think Mavericks is worse than its reputation, I really miss 10.6 and 10.8.)
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    > It might be true, but this attitude makes it very hard for developers not to discount all complaints, including ones grounded in reality. I think this is a problem for outside observers, not competent developers. Unlike us, Apple developers have ready access to statistics about bug reports and other forms of support requests that we do not. This data, presumably, is not subject to the same biases that infect an anecdote-driven discussion of software quality by outsiders.
    - toyg 12y ago
      In my experience, you get a bug report for every hundred or thousand affected users, if that; so excuse me for not having much faith in such statistics. > This data, presumably, is not subject to the same biases ... but it's likely subject to many other biases, e.g. * "hey, this bug was reported by iLife devs, better prioritise ahead of that bug that has affected millions of users for almost two years -- them people are not going to shout at me in the canteen." * "hey, this bug was very well-reported by very technical server people, let's prioritise it ahead of that bug affecting millions of semi-literate consumers" * "hey, this bug blocks the release of $shiny-new-iPhone-feature, let's prioritise it ahead of that bug affecting the trackpad of penny-pinching laptop users" And so on, and so forth.
- mhuffman 12y ago
  Yes, I meant Snow Leopard. Sorry. I have experienced many problems since Yosemite and am a long time OSX user. Maybe because I use my computer extensively every day in the same ways, it is more obvious to me than a casual user, but there are definitely new (and bad) issues with Yosemite, wfiw.
revscat 12y ago
Every release since SL has been met with the same vague complaints.
- mhuffman 12y ago
  I will be specific about my complaints that started immediately after Yosemite upgrade: Graphic glitches in google voice and gmail, bizarre cpu usage out of nowhere, two-finger left swipe changed somehow to be more "sensitive", wifi randomly disconnecting and reconnecting out of the blue, shorter battery life, a "slowness" that is hard to describe but noticeable to me because I use my computer the same way every day, two full "grey screens of death", which I have never experienced in all my time using OSX, "slowness" on memory swapping to the point of beachballs, the list goes on. All of these started immediately after Yosemite upgrade. I have been a long-time OSX user, and have never had a full-blown systems stops until now on any machine I have ever owned from Apple.
mgkimsal 12y ago
OT but... I had an argument with wait staff, then the manager, at a local restaurant I used to go to. "Everything OK?" "Well, no, not really. This chicken sandwich is... different than it used to be. It tastes different from 2 weeks ago, but the menu hasn't changed. Did you change the recipe?" "No, nothing's changed. This is the same" "No, really, it's changed." Back and forth, slightly escalating - manager comes over. Same dialog. He comes back about 10 minutes later. "The recipe hasn't changed at all. We just use different ingredients". Well... it's... a bun, chicken patty, tomato, lettuce and mayo. The bun and chicken had changed. But not the recipe. But they didn't apologize for any misunderstanding or anything - quite irate that I was making a "big deal" out of it. Back story was I'd been going there for about 2 years, 1-3x per month, getting the same thing. It's what I liked best there. Then it was changed. Except not. And it was bad. But there was nothing on the menu to indicate "new" on it. And I was 'wrong' for registering dissatisfaction with the new change that wasn't a change.
- walterbell 12y ago
  If only supply chains came with cryptographic hashes..
  - mgkimsal 12y ago
    cryptographic hash browns... mmm....
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    Maybe we should suggest that to the waiters. Or maybe they could accept pull requests after we've figured it out in our home kitchens..

pdabbadabba 12y ago

> snow lion ...Snow Leopard? The problem with your response is that I don't know that anyone has ever actually provided reliable evidence that the number of complaints has gone up. GP's view, which I share, is that people always complain about new releases, forgetting that the previous release had its problems as well. As GP said, bad headlines are easier to make than good ones. Simply reiterating that you think the previous release had fewer problems, and that there are anecdotes out there about problems in the current release, is hardly a refutation of this. This is entirely consistent with GP's view. I for one have experienced no significant change in reliability on the road from Snow Leopard to Yosemite (for what that's worth).

toyg 12y ago
> people always complain about new releases, forgetting that the previous release had its problems as well It might be true, but this attitude makes it very hard for developers not to discount all complaints, including ones grounded in reality. Just because people are paranoid about new releases being crap, it doesn't mean that they are not crap. Personally, I've experienced a number of really bad bugs in Yosemite. One of the most annoying is four-finger swipes to bring up launchpad: the "blur" animation starts and then just hangs midway, leaving a half-transparent launchpad that works with keyboard controls but not mouse-clicks. Or the infamous "backbreak", where you do two-finger swipes to go back in a browser window and somehow it fails mid-way, leaving an unusable browser page and breaking all two-finger gestures until you close that window (not tab, the whole window). And of course the awful dark corners on the volume icon once you disable transparencies, something you have to do to maintain a decent framerate on a two-year MBP-retina that was perfectly capable to handle all this up to and including Mavericks. And let's not even talk about the wifi dns bug, which I've lost any hope to see permanently fixed in my lifetime. These are bad because they affect very visible UI elements used hundreds or thousands of time per day; the sort of thing that used to be rock-solid and did not significantly change in new releases. I would understand if a newish feature like Finder tabs had a few bugs, but not trackpad gestures that have been there, working fine, for years.
- mhuffman 12y ago
  Holy shit! Thanks for the tip! My MBP is only a little over one year old, but disabling transparencies gave a peppy speed-up. I have also noticed a more "sensitive" left-swipe on the trackpad since Yosemite -- it is infuriating to be constantly trying to scroll down a page and have it send my back a page in a browser.
- Poiesis 12y ago
  Wifi DNS bug? Thanks for putting a name to a very persistent annoying problem in this household with--holy crap--12 Apple devices. Also thanks for that Launchpad description. Keeps happening to my kids and I couldn't figure out why. I'm really disappointed in Apple. I'd really rather have reliable wifi than, say, Continuity.
- gurkendoktor 12y ago
  > Or the infamous "backbreak", where you do two-finger swipes to go back in a browser window and somehow it fails mid-way, leaving an unusable browser page and breaking all two-finger gestures until you close that window (not tab, the whole window). This bug is driving me crazy on 10.9.5, along with a couple of other issues. Sadly not limited to Yosemite. (I think Mavericks is worse than its reputation, I really miss 10.6 and 10.8.)
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  > It might be true, but this attitude makes it very hard for developers not to discount all complaints, including ones grounded in reality. I think this is a problem for outside observers, not competent developers. Unlike us, Apple developers have ready access to statistics about bug reports and other forms of support requests that we do not. This data, presumably, is not subject to the same biases that infect an anecdote-driven discussion of software quality by outsiders.
  - toyg 12y ago
    In my experience, you get a bug report for every hundred or thousand affected users, if that; so excuse me for not having much faith in such statistics. > This data, presumably, is not subject to the same biases ... but it's likely subject to many other biases, e.g. * "hey, this bug was reported by iLife devs, better prioritise ahead of that bug that has affected millions of users for almost two years -- them people are not going to shout at me in the canteen." * "hey, this bug was very well-reported by very technical server people, let's prioritise it ahead of that bug affecting millions of semi-literate consumers" * "hey, this bug blocks the release of $shiny-new-iPhone-feature, let's prioritise it ahead of that bug affecting the trackpad of penny-pinching laptop users" And so on, and so forth.
mhuffman 12y ago
Yes, I meant Snow Leopard. Sorry. I have experienced many problems since Yosemite and am a long time OSX user. Maybe because I use my computer extensively every day in the same ways, it is more obvious to me than a casual user, but there are definitely new (and bad) issues with Yosemite, wfiw.

revscat 12y ago

Every release since SL has been met with the same vague complaints.

mhuffman 12y ago
I will be specific about my complaints that started immediately after Yosemite upgrade: Graphic glitches in google voice and gmail, bizarre cpu usage out of nowhere, two-finger left swipe changed somehow to be more "sensitive", wifi randomly disconnecting and reconnecting out of the blue, shorter battery life, a "slowness" that is hard to describe but noticeable to me because I use my computer the same way every day, two full "grey screens of death", which I have never experienced in all my time using OSX, "slowness" on memory swapping to the point of beachballs, the list goes on. All of these started immediately after Yosemite upgrade. I have been a long-time OSX user, and have never had a full-blown systems stops until now on any machine I have ever owned from Apple.

mgkimsal 12y ago

OT but... I had an argument with wait staff, then the manager, at a local restaurant I used to go to. "Everything OK?" "Well, no, not really. This chicken sandwich is... different than it used to be. It tastes different from 2 weeks ago, but the menu hasn't changed. Did you change the recipe?" "No, nothing's changed. This is the same" "No, really, it's changed." Back and forth, slightly escalating - manager comes over. Same dialog. He comes back about 10 minutes later. "The recipe hasn't changed at all. We just use different ingredients". Well... it's... a bun, chicken patty, tomato, lettuce and mayo. The bun and chicken had changed. But not the recipe. But they didn't apologize for any misunderstanding or anything - quite irate that I was making a "big deal" out of it. Back story was I'd been going there for about 2 years, 1-3x per month, getting the same thing. It's what I liked best there. Then it was changed. Except not. And it was bad. But there was nothing on the menu to indicate "new" on it. And I was 'wrong' for registering dissatisfaction with the new change that wasn't a change.

walterbell 12y ago
If only supply chains came with cryptographic hashes..
- mgkimsal 12y ago
  cryptographic hash browns... mmm....
- m_mueller 12y ago
  Maybe we should suggest that to the waiters. Or maybe they could accept pull requests after we've figured it out in our home kitchens..