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Public transport is tracked too. TFL have removed the ability to use cash on busses now, you must use oyster cards.[1] [1] https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/c

by eterm 12y ago

Public transport is tracked too. TFL have removed the ability to use cash on busses now, you must use oyster cards.[1] [1] https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses

orf 12y ago
Only in London and for good reason, having people pay by cash each stop takes up a ridiculous amount of time on popular routes.
- eterm 12y ago
  Yeah, transport in London barely functioned until oyster cards were introduced! Also, I didn't claim that surveillance was the primary reason for oyster cards, but there is no doubt it also functions as an effective large surveillance network. As for other cities, transport isn't as centralised as it is in London so is vastly harder to implement, but for sure others are looking into similar schemes.
EliRivers 12y ago
That enables them to track the card, but not the person. The card does not have to be tied to a specific person. I suppose you could correlate known journeys someone made and work out which card is their's, or watch someone using the card on CCTV and use the timestamp to identify their card, or once you'd got someone in custody take their card and get their travel history, but if someone simply changes card (and pays cash for it) they vanish again.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Can you pay for those cards with cash? In NL they do everything possible to avoid you buying the cards with cash (and there is a surcharge for disposables).
  - lozf 12y ago
    You can pay a GBP5 "deposit", which is inconvenient to get back without registering, but cash top-ups are available from machines and ticket offices under certain circumstances. Also, like with most things these days, we're sold on the convenience that registering adds i.e. no loss of funds if lost or stolen, and "auto top up" from your registered credit / debit card... most people don't care enough to pay an extra GBP5 to make their transport history "disappear" every so often - especially when there are so many other ways we're tracked.
- eterm 12y ago
  Every time you change card you get charged an extra £5, so even cash payers won't be changing cards to clean their history very often. And now they actually accept debit cards directly at the gates without even the oyster cards. If someone tries, of course they can pay cash and they can change up cards. But the point isn't that it's impossible to avoid surveillance, but that we are in a surveillance state which you have to try hard enough to avoid that avoidance is a red flag in itself.

by eterm 12y ago

orf 12y ago

Only in London and for good reason, having people pay by cash each stop takes up a ridiculous amount of time on popular routes.

eterm 12y ago
Yeah, transport in London barely functioned until oyster cards were introduced! Also, I didn't claim that surveillance was the primary reason for oyster cards, but there is no doubt it also functions as an effective large surveillance network. As for other cities, transport isn't as centralised as it is in London so is vastly harder to implement, but for sure others are looking into similar schemes.

EliRivers 12y ago

That enables them to track the card, but not the person. The card does not have to be tied to a specific person. I suppose you could correlate known journeys someone made and work out which card is their's, or watch someone using the card on CCTV and use the timestamp to identify their card, or once you'd got someone in custody take their card and get their travel history, but if someone simply changes card (and pays cash for it) they vanish again.

jacquesm 12y ago
Can you pay for those cards with cash? In NL they do everything possible to avoid you buying the cards with cash (and there is a surcharge for disposables).
- lozf 12y ago
  You can pay a GBP5 "deposit", which is inconvenient to get back without registering, but cash top-ups are available from machines and ticket offices under certain circumstances. Also, like with most things these days, we're sold on the convenience that registering adds i.e. no loss of funds if lost or stolen, and "auto top up" from your registered credit / debit card... most people don't care enough to pay an extra GBP5 to make their transport history "disappear" every so often - especially when there are so many other ways we're tracked.
eterm 12y ago
Every time you change card you get charged an extra £5, so even cash payers won't be changing cards to clean their history very often. And now they actually accept debit cards directly at the gates without even the oyster cards. If someone tries, of course they can pay cash and they can change up cards. But the point isn't that it's impossible to avoid surveillance, but that we are in a surveillance state which you have to try hard enough to avoid that avoidance is a red flag in itself.