5 ms·

Send my banking info to a potential customer? Ask them to GO to their Bank and send me the money I request? This is a problem solver how? Sounds frustrating

by dpcan 17y ago

Send my banking info to a potential customer? Ask them to GO to their Bank and send me the money I request? This is a problem solver how? Sounds frustrating and awful. The benefits of checks are huge: 1) They take time to process, so if you have to move money around, you can give someone a check and then go put the money in that account. 2) You control when the vendor gets paid. If you give someone a credit card number, they can just charge you. With a check, they have to ask ME for money, and I decide when or if I'm going to pay. 3) Signed, written, record. 4) NO FEES attached for the vendor. I LOVE getting paid by check because I don't have to give 5-10% away to some bank.

patio11 17y ago
I am going to teach you something. It is important: please pay attention. Pull out one of your checks. Can you locate your name on it? Good. You'll see two groups of numbers on the bottom of it. The first group of numbers, typically, is your ABA routing number. That tells me where you bank. The second number is your bank account number at that bank. These three pieces of information are all I need to debit your bank account. There are a variety of ways to do it -- the simplest method is printing a "demand draft", which is essentially a check drawn against your account but printed on my printer. In place of signature it says "Authorized By Account Holder". (Signed, written, record!) Every person who has ever held a check -- ANY CHECK -- from you in their hands, regardless of what is written on it, can debit your account at will. Every waiter, every grocery store clerk, every person involved in the processing chain. Many people think checks are magically more secure than credit cards. Those people are not well acquainted with payment processing.
- stonemetal 17y ago
  >Many people think checks are magically more secure than credit cards. Yeah but they are not any less secure either. Buy something off amazon give them your credit card details number, expiration date, and security number off the back, and they can charge your credit card how much and whenever they want just the same as a check. Fraudulent activity (at least in the US ) has similar liability and penalty rules.
  - billswift 17y ago
    >Fraudulent activity (at least in the US ) has similar liability Not hardly. Until you can collect from someone who rips off your checking account (good luck on that), YOU are liable for the amount (at least until your bank puts a stop payment on the account). With a credit card, you are liable only for the first $50, the card issuer is liable for anything over that.
    - stonemetal 17y ago
      Your right it is better to use a check. In the event of a fraudulent check you are liable for $0, if you report it within 30 days of your statement same time period for credit cards. More than thirty days latter you split the responsibility with the bank, for credit cards it is your problem. The bank that cashed the check is on the hook for the funds in the case of check fraud.
- mjgoins 17y ago
  Incidentally, this is why Donald Knuth stopped sending people his famous checks for $2.56
- jhancock 17y ago
  You are correct on the technical side. On the legal side, there is clear support to protect fraudulent use of a written check. If you go to your local police station and try to file a criminal report on someone abusing your Visa or PayPal account, your most likely going to get puzzled looks as to what to do. The laws are so strong that they have been co-opted in a seedy way to support the "payday check" industry. You write a post-dated check and if the money is not in the account by that date and the check bounces, the payday company uses your local sheriff's office to arrest you. This is a terrible abuse of public services but shows how strong the laws are.
  - patio11 17y ago
    If you go to your local police station and try to file a criminal report on someone abusing your Visa or PayPal account, your most likely going to get puzzled looks as to what to do. I'm looking for a piece of information in your profile like "I live in rural Afghanistan" which would make this crazy story sound plausible, but not finding it. If you live in a first world country like, e.g., the US, your local police department is quite familiar with the notion of credit card fraud. They'll tell you a) fill out this police report and b) bring it to the attention of your bank to get the charges reversed and c) the odds of us catching the guy are slim, which (they will not tell you) is the same as almost all financial crimes, including most fraudulent uses of checks.
  - generalk 17y ago
    There are similar laws for credit fraud, of course, so the stated benefit of "I don't have to give someone my details!" is confusing. In any kind of "pull" system where I have to give someone else credentials to access my account, there's going to be the potential for fraud. A "push" system, where you have the ability to deposit into an account but not withdraw from it, sounds much more secure.
    - jhancock 17y ago
      I agree, the stated benefit of I don't have to give my details, is not just confusing but plain wrong. Checks leak as much if not more information. I was replying the parent post of why checks do have some value. The laws for check fraud are different than credit fraud and the like. In most cases (each U.S. state is different), check fraud laws are old and quite strict. These laws have statutory obligations to fulfill to enable criminal prosecution. These requirements in turn force law enforcement and banks to take action. This may not always happen, but there is a framework for pushing it to happen.
- SamAtt 17y ago
  "Every person who has ever held a check -- ANY CHECK -- from you in their hands, regardless of what is written on it, can debit your account at will. Every waiter, every grocery store clerk, every person involved in the processing chain." And what's to stop every person who has ever held your Credit Card from doing the same? Thankfully many institutions are now asking for a zip code when you use a credit card online but most still don't and that means every waiter, grocery store clerk, etc... who has held your credit card long enough to write down the number could use it to go on a shopping spree.
  - btilly 17y ago
    This varies by country, but in the USA by law your maximum possible financial loss from this is $50. The credit card issuer is liable, and that is why they put energy into fraud detection systems. By contrast the immediate damage to you from misuse of your check information is much worse.
jhancock 17y ago
good list. I'll add 5 - There are strong criminal laws for abuse of checks. If someone misuses my Visa info, I have to go through Visa for complaints and maybe could get some response from law enforcement. With someone writing or modifying a bad check, I can go straight to my local law enforcement and they know how to take action.
- eli 17y ago
  OTOH, if someone misuses your Visa, you aren't out any money. If someone empties your bank account, your rent check bounces and you have to fight to get your money back while the bank investigates.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
generalk 17y ago
My experience with this kind of transfer system is limited to the posted article, but the benefits sound enormous! > 1) They take time to process, so if you have to move money around, you can give someone a check and then go put the money in that account. With the giro transfer method, it sounds like you're in more control -- it's a push, not a pull. > 2) You control when the vendor gets paid. If you give someone a credit card number, they can just charge you. With a check, they have to ask ME for money, and I decide when or if I'm going to pay. Right, but after you give them the check, it becomes exactly like a credit card. They can charge you at-will. And, just like your credit card, there are stiff penalties for fraud. And just like your credit card, fraud still happens. > 3) Signed, written, record. How is physically stepping into your bank and personally authorizing a transfer of funds any less of a signed record than a check? > 4) NO FEES attached for the vendor. I LOVE getting paid by check because I don't have to give 5-10% away to some bank. Why do you assume that there's a vendor fee here? Personally, if I never saw another paper check that'd be fine. They're nothing but a hassle. Having a quick and easy ability to accept deposits and authorize transfers without the use of a paper check is such an amazing convenience that I'm shocked we haven't adopted such a system.
pmichaud 17y ago
I don't think you fully grokked the article. With cheques, the buyer gives the seller their bank account info and notes how much the seller should take out. With giro, the seller gives the buyer the bank account information, and the buyer decides how much to send to the seller. I don't see why this couldn't be done online, so "GO"ing to the bank isn't an issue. 1) I consider this a bug: checks are inefficient enough that people can put you at risk while appearing to pay on time by giving you a check they can't honor at that time. It's debatable, but I'll give you that giro would not have this "feature." 2) You still control when the vendor gets paid. In fact, you control it more directly. With checks, you give the check then you have to pretend that amount of money is out of your account until the person holding the check decides to cash it. With giro you send the money exactly when you want to, and the money goes to them directly. 3) This is a potential point, but what is stopping us from using "reverse cheques" for the same purpose? 4) This also doesn't apply. We're not talking about cards, we're talking about reverse cheques.
furyg3 17y ago
Actually, since I've moved to the Netherlands I've only used GIROs a handful of times, since the NL has an even better option. GIRO Transfers are particularly handy when it comes to recurring transfers, but for one time payments they're annoying. The other alternative is one-time online transfers. They're free, and instant. All you need to know is the recipient's account. There are other fields for specifying what the payment is for (PO Number, for example). You can make them recurring. Banks are responsible for the security, and take it seriously. My bank gives me a thing they call an "eDentifier" which is a calculator-thing that I drop my smart ATM card into. I then unlock it with my PIN number, and enter in the code presented to me by my bank. The device displays my card's response, which I then give back to the website to log in or send payments. With this scheme the bank knows I physically have the card, and that I know the PIN number (better than a signature). This is the most common way, but I once saw another system which confirmed by sending a code via SMS to the sender's cell, to be entered on the web site. Unlike checks, I can't make the transfer unless that money in actually my account (and the recipient can't spend part of that money thinking it will clear to find out later it didn't). Thus there can be no NSF/overdraft fees. Also unlike checks, it's instantaneous, so the money is never on hold by banks in a limbo state, unavailable to both parties. Nobody has to buy any checks, nobody can be ripped off by check advance fees, and there can be no check processing fees to the recipient. For all of those reasons it will never happen in America.

by dpcan 17y ago

patio11 17y ago

I am going to teach you something. It is important: please pay attention. Pull out one of your checks. Can you locate your name on it? Good. You'll see two groups of numbers on the bottom of it. The first group of numbers, typically, is your ABA routing number. That tells me where you bank. The second number is your bank account number at that bank. These three pieces of information are all I need to debit your bank account. There are a variety of ways to do it -- the simplest method is printing a "demand draft", which is essentially a check drawn against your account but printed on my printer. In place of signature it says "Authorized By Account Holder". (Signed, written, record!) Every person who has ever held a check -- ANY CHECK -- from you in their hands, regardless of what is written on it, can debit your account at will. Every waiter, every grocery store clerk, every person involved in the processing chain. Many people think checks are magically more secure than credit cards. Those people are not well acquainted with payment processing.

stonemetal 17y ago
>Many people think checks are magically more secure than credit cards. Yeah but they are not any less secure either. Buy something off amazon give them your credit card details number, expiration date, and security number off the back, and they can charge your credit card how much and whenever they want just the same as a check. Fraudulent activity (at least in the US ) has similar liability and penalty rules.
- billswift 17y ago
  >Fraudulent activity (at least in the US ) has similar liability Not hardly. Until you can collect from someone who rips off your checking account (good luck on that), YOU are liable for the amount (at least until your bank puts a stop payment on the account). With a credit card, you are liable only for the first $50, the card issuer is liable for anything over that.
  - stonemetal 17y ago
    Your right it is better to use a check. In the event of a fraudulent check you are liable for $0, if you report it within 30 days of your statement same time period for credit cards. More than thirty days latter you split the responsibility with the bank, for credit cards it is your problem. The bank that cashed the check is on the hook for the funds in the case of check fraud.
mjgoins 17y ago
Incidentally, this is why Donald Knuth stopped sending people his famous checks for $2.56
jhancock 17y ago
You are correct on the technical side. On the legal side, there is clear support to protect fraudulent use of a written check. If you go to your local police station and try to file a criminal report on someone abusing your Visa or PayPal account, your most likely going to get puzzled looks as to what to do. The laws are so strong that they have been co-opted in a seedy way to support the "payday check" industry. You write a post-dated check and if the money is not in the account by that date and the check bounces, the payday company uses your local sheriff's office to arrest you. This is a terrible abuse of public services but shows how strong the laws are.
- patio11 17y ago
  If you go to your local police station and try to file a criminal report on someone abusing your Visa or PayPal account, your most likely going to get puzzled looks as to what to do. I'm looking for a piece of information in your profile like "I live in rural Afghanistan" which would make this crazy story sound plausible, but not finding it. If you live in a first world country like, e.g., the US, your local police department is quite familiar with the notion of credit card fraud. They'll tell you a) fill out this police report and b) bring it to the attention of your bank to get the charges reversed and c) the odds of us catching the guy are slim, which (they will not tell you) is the same as almost all financial crimes, including most fraudulent uses of checks.
- generalk 17y ago
  There are similar laws for credit fraud, of course, so the stated benefit of "I don't have to give someone my details!" is confusing. In any kind of "pull" system where I have to give someone else credentials to access my account, there's going to be the potential for fraud. A "push" system, where you have the ability to deposit into an account but not withdraw from it, sounds much more secure.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    I agree, the stated benefit of I don't have to give my details, is not just confusing but plain wrong. Checks leak as much if not more information. I was replying the parent post of why checks do have some value. The laws for check fraud are different than credit fraud and the like. In most cases (each U.S. state is different), check fraud laws are old and quite strict. These laws have statutory obligations to fulfill to enable criminal prosecution. These requirements in turn force law enforcement and banks to take action. This may not always happen, but there is a framework for pushing it to happen.
SamAtt 17y ago
"Every person who has ever held a check -- ANY CHECK -- from you in their hands, regardless of what is written on it, can debit your account at will. Every waiter, every grocery store clerk, every person involved in the processing chain." And what's to stop every person who has ever held your Credit Card from doing the same? Thankfully many institutions are now asking for a zip code when you use a credit card online but most still don't and that means every waiter, grocery store clerk, etc... who has held your credit card long enough to write down the number could use it to go on a shopping spree.
- btilly 17y ago
  This varies by country, but in the USA by law your maximum possible financial loss from this is $50. The credit card issuer is liable, and that is why they put energy into fraud detection systems. By contrast the immediate damage to you from misuse of your check information is much worse.

jhancock 17y ago

good list. I'll add 5 - There are strong criminal laws for abuse of checks. If someone misuses my Visa info, I have to go through Visa for complaints and maybe could get some response from law enforcement. With someone writing or modifying a bad check, I can go straight to my local law enforcement and they know how to take action.

eli 17y ago
OTOH, if someone misuses your Visa, you aren't out any money. If someone empties your bank account, your rent check bounces and you have to fight to get your money back while the bank investigates.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

generalk 17y ago

My experience with this kind of transfer system is limited to the posted article, but the benefits sound enormous! > 1) They take time to process, so if you have to move money around, you can give someone a check and then go put the money in that account. With the giro transfer method, it sounds like you're in more control -- it's a push, not a pull. > 2) You control when the vendor gets paid. If you give someone a credit card number, they can just charge you. With a check, they have to ask ME for money, and I decide when or if I'm going to pay. Right, but after you give them the check, it becomes exactly like a credit card. They can charge you at-will. And, just like your credit card, there are stiff penalties for fraud. And just like your credit card, fraud still happens. > 3) Signed, written, record. How is physically stepping into your bank and personally authorizing a transfer of funds any less of a signed record than a check? > 4) NO FEES attached for the vendor. I LOVE getting paid by check because I don't have to give 5-10% away to some bank. Why do you assume that there's a vendor fee here? Personally, if I never saw another paper check that'd be fine. They're nothing but a hassle. Having a quick and easy ability to accept deposits and authorize transfers without the use of a paper check is such an amazing convenience that I'm shocked we haven't adopted such a system.

pmichaud 17y ago

I don't think you fully grokked the article. With cheques, the buyer gives the seller their bank account info and notes how much the seller should take out. With giro, the seller gives the buyer the bank account information, and the buyer decides how much to send to the seller. I don't see why this couldn't be done online, so "GO"ing to the bank isn't an issue. 1) I consider this a bug: checks are inefficient enough that people can put you at risk while appearing to pay on time by giving you a check they can't honor at that time. It's debatable, but I'll give you that giro would not have this "feature." 2) You still control when the vendor gets paid. In fact, you control it more directly. With checks, you give the check then you have to pretend that amount of money is out of your account until the person holding the check decides to cash it. With giro you send the money exactly when you want to, and the money goes to them directly. 3) This is a potential point, but what is stopping us from using "reverse cheques" for the same purpose? 4) This also doesn't apply. We're not talking about cards, we're talking about reverse cheques.

furyg3 17y ago

Actually, since I've moved to the Netherlands I've only used GIROs a handful of times, since the NL has an even better option. GIRO Transfers are particularly handy when it comes to recurring transfers, but for one time payments they're annoying. The other alternative is one-time online transfers. They're free, and instant. All you need to know is the recipient's account. There are other fields for specifying what the payment is for (PO Number, for example). You can make them recurring. Banks are responsible for the security, and take it seriously. My bank gives me a thing they call an "eDentifier" which is a calculator-thing that I drop my smart ATM card into. I then unlock it with my PIN number, and enter in the code presented to me by my bank. The device displays my card's response, which I then give back to the website to log in or send payments. With this scheme the bank knows I physically have the card, and that I know the PIN number (better than a signature). This is the most common way, but I once saw another system which confirmed by sending a code via SMS to the sender's cell, to be entered on the web site. Unlike checks, I can't make the transfer unless that money in actually my account (and the recipient can't spend part of that money thinking it will clear to find out later it didn't). Thus there can be no NSF/overdraft fees. Also unlike checks, it's instantaneous, so the money is never on hold by banks in a limbo state, unavailable to both parties. Nobody has to buy any checks, nobody can be ripped off by check advance fees, and there can be no check processing fees to the recipient. For all of those reasons it will never happen in America.