6 ms·

A Century of Silence: A Family Survives the Armenian Genocide

39 points by diodorus 12y ago

ruricolist 12y ago
Now I understand why I was never able to find out anything about where my great-grandfather came from -- very likely it was one of those little villages that were simply wiped out.
capnmal 12y ago
It is still a debated piece of history. Yet there is proof of Armenian's barbaric killing spree of the area.
- arjn 12y ago
  No, its not a "debated" piece of history. It happened and there is an overwhelming body of proof.
  - fatihpense 12y ago
    I think it is still debated in the sense that Ottomans' intention was forced migration or genocide.
  - talian 12y ago
    Nope. There's no "overwhelming" proof. Only sad stories, and a blue book (THE TREATMENT OF ARMENIANS IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, 1915-1916) made up by Toynbee et al. as a war propaganda, yet even the victors of 1st world war did not even respect the propaganda book, so no claims about genocide were made after the war ended(1918). Isn't it interesting that, imperialists trying to conquer a middle eastern country, does not even try to support genocide claims on that country, to get more public support world wide?
    - shepardrtc 12y ago
      My grandfather having to be dressed up as a little girl and smuggled out of the country is proof enough for me. They killed the men and forced the women to march until they died, in case you didn't know.
      - talian 12y ago
        And my grandfather believed that an invisible man was watching our every move. But despite my grandfather, I don't believe such invisible man exists. People tend to easily believe in stories that are told over and over, but some people prefer the stories that sit on some kind of solid proof. Is there any kind of solid proof an so-called genocide, other than sad stories heard from relatives? Look for hodjali massacre: Armenian love bugs massacred the azerbaijanis. You can easily find solid proofs on hodjali massacre. But is there anything on so-called armenian genocide other than heart breaking stories? Long story short: armenians tried to take advantage of the world war and conquer the eastern anatolia by assaulting on kurdish and turkish villages. Von schellendorf ordered deportation of armenians. Kurds tried to take revenge of the assaults. Please do find solid proofs for your story, other than "my grandfather was this and that".
        DanBC 12y ago
        At least 300,000 - but probably more than a million - Armenians were killed. > There is general agreement that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died when the Ottoman Turks deported them en masse from eastern Anatolia to the Syrian desert and elsewhere in 1915-16. They were killed or died from starvation or disease. The total number of Armenian dead is disputed. Armenians say 1.5 million died. The Republic of Turkey estimates the total to be 300,000. > According to the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the death toll was "more than a million". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm So what are you saying? That people were not killed, or that they were not killed as part of a genocide?
        shepardrtc 12y ago
        Where are your "solid proofs?" I have my family and my existence (I wouldn't be here if my grandfather wasn't forced to leave the country) to prove what I'm saying. You're just trying to cover up what the Turks did. A lot of people say the Nazis didn't do anything either. They're wrong, just as you are.
arjn 12y ago
While Armenians bore the brunt of the Ottoman brutality, there were Assyrian, Syriac and Orthodox Greek massacares/genocides too but for some reason these are much less known and rarely talked about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide
- DrinkWater 12y ago
  The main reason is that the Armenian people do a lot more lobby work in that regard. They also have their own country, unlike the Syriac-speaking people (that includes "Assyrians"). That gives the cause way more backbone.
  - arjn 12y ago
    I suppose you're right. There are many more Armenians around than there are Assyrians/Chaldeans. In general though, this area has important histories that are seemingly ignored.
zura 12y ago
We also shouldn't forget the genocide of Circassians by Russian empire. http://www.circassian-genocide.info/ http://www.circassian-genocide.info/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Circassians#Genocide_question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Circassians...
fatihpense 12y ago
One more anecdote about changing names of places. Turkey sometimes change names that has in fact Turkish origin according to an famous historian in Turkey. I agree with the article Turkey has a long road ahead to reach an environment where cultural diversity is really desired. And it is upset that it lost many cultures already. However, this article feels too hateful for me. I could read an article with similar arguments about how Armenians piled weapons that they get from Western countries and attacked villages behind frontline of war with Russians and Ottomans planned to migrate them, however there were illness and bandits because there was already an ongoing war. These are arguments but most of the time there is hate and generizations how bad and evil the other side is attached to these arguments... Really, is it going anywhere? It is sad but I think It will be political material for use in the future too. The people of the world will watch us arguing childishly and they will say to themselves "oh look another middle east dispute, how interesting!" Turkey and middle east has been home for many civilizations in its history and I hope people learn to celebrate all of the historical heritage and different cultures. I hope.
gokhan 12y ago
As a Turk, I'm glad that this issue will be most probably solved in 2015. I hope that, from the kids of 1915 to the kids of today, the darkness of 1915 on the hearts of Armenians to be relieved by the international community with naming those days according to Armenians' wishes. Based on the current ideological and political climate in Turkey, the idea of a genocide in our past cannot even be discussed but WTF, we will hopefully change someday and face whatever it is.
- arjn 12y ago
  I'm glad to see some reasonable views from Turks here. I personally dont think anyone should have to apologize for anything that happened during that era, but certainly there should be recognition of it.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- shepardrtc 12y ago
  "whatever it is" You want your people to face something that you can't even face?
platform 12y ago
The article states that there was recent change in Turkey where the referring to the Armenian genocide is now longer a criminal offense " ... For nearly a century, the Turkish state has denied the Armenian genocide—until recently, you could be prosecuted even for referring to it—and so any inquiry into such things would have been fraught. ..." However, I cannot find a reference to the legislative change in Turkey. In fact, my search turns somewhat opposite direction a) Turkey's foreign ministry a year ago actively opposing Australian state-level recognition of the genocide (Austalia does not recognize it at federal level) http://theconversation.com/turkey-the-armenian-genocide-and-the-politics-of-memory-20747 http://theconversation.com/turkey-the-armenian-genocide-and-... b) Denying the Armenian genocide cannot be made in to a criminal offense. While denying Jewish genocide can be made into the criminal offense http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-switzerland-turkey-genocide-idUSBRE9BG0O820131217 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-switzerland-tur... My ethnic ancestry happen to be both of these prosecuted groups. Establishing, in my own mind, a parity in recognition of these horrific events of the past, is not a rewarding journey for me. Emotionally, I just cannot imagine being in the place of my grand and grand grand parents who personally witnessed this. But at a logical level, it seems that modern Turkey would not be held back from the world stage, by recognizing the tragic mistakes of the Ottoman Turkey of the past.
talian 12y ago
Funny, how all these sad stories easily make their ways even among intellectual people. "Our duty is to make Turks out of all the non-Turks within the Turkish country, no matter what. We will cut out and throw away any element that will oppose Turks and Turkishness." There's no such quote from İnönü. But when lies are supported with such strong words, suddenly people start respecting them. These lies are made up by kurd-islamists in recent years, and other groups such as armenians are also trying to grab a bite from Turkey, by taking kurd-islamists side and supporting their lies. These lies can easily be traced back to kurd-islamist so-called historians' books, but one can go no further than that, for there's no supporting evidence on their claims even in their books. But as always, if you repeat the same lies over and over again, people will believe it.
- arjn 12y ago
  Ah.... one of those :) So lets understand what you're trying to say here.... that none of this happened, that all the Armenians, Greek Orthodox people, Assyrians and Syriac Christian peoples just dropped dead of their own accord. And the Ottoman authorities had nothing to do with it .... right ? Thats what you're saying ?
  - talian 12y ago
    Interesting, it was armenians first, but then Greek Orthodox people, Assyrians and Syriac Christian are also added to list huh? Nobody suddenly dropped dead i guess, but deportation is one thing, genocide is another. Deportation of armenians were ordered by von Schellendorf, for the armenian separatist gangs were causing way much trouble on the eastern side, assaulting on mostly kurdish villages, as well as turkish villages. During deportation, kurds tried to take revenge of these assaults. Deportation, illnesses and such seems to have claimed some lives too. You can find some more details on these assaults in Soviet Russias military reports in 1915, such as Brigadier General Leonid Bolhovitinov's. The interesting thing is: sad stories do not seem to require proof. For example, if a million is dead, then it should have been easy to find mass graves on the route. Where did a million corpses go, did barbaric ottomans eat them? Another interesting thing is: you are in the middle of a world war, and you suddenly give up fighting the enemy, and start wasting your arms and forces on a million of unarmed civillians, seems logical huh? These sad stories are nothing but stories that mostly have roots in some event but grew more and more in peoples mouths in years, like religious fairy tales. People love drama, and when the story is touching, they do not seem to look for any proof for believing.

39 points by diodorus 12y ago

Now I understand why I was never able to find out anything about where my great-grandfather came from -- very likely it was one of those little villages that were simply wiped out.

capnmal 12y ago

It is still a debated piece of history. Yet there is proof of Armenian's barbaric killing spree of the area.

arjn 12y ago
No, its not a "debated" piece of history. It happened and there is an overwhelming body of proof.
- fatihpense 12y ago
  I think it is still debated in the sense that Ottomans' intention was forced migration or genocide.
- talian 12y ago
  Nope. There's no "overwhelming" proof. Only sad stories, and a blue book (THE TREATMENT OF ARMENIANS IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, 1915-1916) made up by Toynbee et al. as a war propaganda, yet even the victors of 1st world war did not even respect the propaganda book, so no claims about genocide were made after the war ended(1918). Isn't it interesting that, imperialists trying to conquer a middle eastern country, does not even try to support genocide claims on that country, to get more public support world wide?
  - shepardrtc 12y ago
    My grandfather having to be dressed up as a little girl and smuggled out of the country is proof enough for me. They killed the men and forced the women to march until they died, in case you didn't know.
    - talian 12y ago
      And my grandfather believed that an invisible man was watching our every move. But despite my grandfather, I don't believe such invisible man exists. People tend to easily believe in stories that are told over and over, but some people prefer the stories that sit on some kind of solid proof. Is there any kind of solid proof an so-called genocide, other than sad stories heard from relatives? Look for hodjali massacre: Armenian love bugs massacred the azerbaijanis. You can easily find solid proofs on hodjali massacre. But is there anything on so-called armenian genocide other than heart breaking stories? Long story short: armenians tried to take advantage of the world war and conquer the eastern anatolia by assaulting on kurdish and turkish villages. Von schellendorf ordered deportation of armenians. Kurds tried to take revenge of the assaults. Please do find solid proofs for your story, other than "my grandfather was this and that".
      - DanBC 12y ago
        At least 300,000 - but probably more than a million - Armenians were killed. > There is general agreement that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died when the Ottoman Turks deported them en masse from eastern Anatolia to the Syrian desert and elsewhere in 1915-16. They were killed or died from starvation or disease. The total number of Armenian dead is disputed. Armenians say 1.5 million died. The Republic of Turkey estimates the total to be 300,000. > According to the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the death toll was "more than a million". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm So what are you saying? That people were not killed, or that they were not killed as part of a genocide?
      - shepardrtc 12y ago
        Where are your "solid proofs?" I have my family and my existence (I wouldn't be here if my grandfather wasn't forced to leave the country) to prove what I'm saying. You're just trying to cover up what the Turks did. A lot of people say the Nazis didn't do anything either. They're wrong, just as you are.

arjn 12y ago

While Armenians bore the brunt of the Ottoman brutality, there were Assyrian, Syriac and Orthodox Greek massacares/genocides too but for some reason these are much less known and rarely talked about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide

DrinkWater 12y ago
The main reason is that the Armenian people do a lot more lobby work in that regard. They also have their own country, unlike the Syriac-speaking people (that includes "Assyrians"). That gives the cause way more backbone.
- arjn 12y ago
  I suppose you're right. There are many more Armenians around than there are Assyrians/Chaldeans. In general though, this area has important histories that are seemingly ignored.

zura 12y ago

We also shouldn't forget the genocide of Circassians by Russian empire. http://www.circassian-genocide.info/ http://www.circassian-genocide.info/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Circassians#Genocide_question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Circassians...

fatihpense 12y ago

One more anecdote about changing names of places. Turkey sometimes change names that has in fact Turkish origin according to an famous historian in Turkey. I agree with the article Turkey has a long road ahead to reach an environment where cultural diversity is really desired. And it is upset that it lost many cultures already. However, this article feels too hateful for me. I could read an article with similar arguments about how Armenians piled weapons that they get from Western countries and attacked villages behind frontline of war with Russians and Ottomans planned to migrate them, however there were illness and bandits because there was already an ongoing war. These are arguments but most of the time there is hate and generizations how bad and evil the other side is attached to these arguments... Really, is it going anywhere? It is sad but I think It will be political material for use in the future too. The people of the world will watch us arguing childishly and they will say to themselves "oh look another middle east dispute, how interesting!" Turkey and middle east has been home for many civilizations in its history and I hope people learn to celebrate all of the historical heritage and different cultures. I hope.

gokhan 12y ago

As a Turk, I'm glad that this issue will be most probably solved in 2015. I hope that, from the kids of 1915 to the kids of today, the darkness of 1915 on the hearts of Armenians to be relieved by the international community with naming those days according to Armenians' wishes. Based on the current ideological and political climate in Turkey, the idea of a genocide in our past cannot even be discussed but WTF, we will hopefully change someday and face whatever it is.

arjn 12y ago
I'm glad to see some reasonable views from Turks here. I personally dont think anyone should have to apologize for anything that happened during that era, but certainly there should be recognition of it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
shepardrtc 12y ago
"whatever it is" You want your people to face something that you can't even face?

platform 12y ago

The article states that there was recent change in Turkey where the referring to the Armenian genocide is now longer a criminal offense " ... For nearly a century, the Turkish state has denied the Armenian genocide—until recently, you could be prosecuted even for referring to it—and so any inquiry into such things would have been fraught. ..." However, I cannot find a reference to the legislative change in Turkey. In fact, my search turns somewhat opposite direction a) Turkey's foreign ministry a year ago actively opposing Australian state-level recognition of the genocide (Austalia does not recognize it at federal level) http://theconversation.com/turkey-the-armenian-genocide-and-the-politics-of-memory-20747 http://theconversation.com/turkey-the-armenian-genocide-and-... b) Denying the Armenian genocide cannot be made in to a criminal offense. While denying Jewish genocide can be made into the criminal offense http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-switzerland-turkey-genocide-idUSBRE9BG0O820131217 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-switzerland-tur... My ethnic ancestry happen to be both of these prosecuted groups. Establishing, in my own mind, a parity in recognition of these horrific events of the past, is not a rewarding journey for me. Emotionally, I just cannot imagine being in the place of my grand and grand grand parents who personally witnessed this. But at a logical level, it seems that modern Turkey would not be held back from the world stage, by recognizing the tragic mistakes of the Ottoman Turkey of the past.

talian 12y ago

Funny, how all these sad stories easily make their ways even among intellectual people. "Our duty is to make Turks out of all the non-Turks within the Turkish country, no matter what. We will cut out and throw away any element that will oppose Turks and Turkishness." There's no such quote from İnönü. But when lies are supported with such strong words, suddenly people start respecting them. These lies are made up by kurd-islamists in recent years, and other groups such as armenians are also trying to grab a bite from Turkey, by taking kurd-islamists side and supporting their lies. These lies can easily be traced back to kurd-islamist so-called historians' books, but one can go no further than that, for there's no supporting evidence on their claims even in their books. But as always, if you repeat the same lies over and over again, people will believe it.

arjn 12y ago
Ah.... one of those :) So lets understand what you're trying to say here.... that none of this happened, that all the Armenians, Greek Orthodox people, Assyrians and Syriac Christian peoples just dropped dead of their own accord. And the Ottoman authorities had nothing to do with it .... right ? Thats what you're saying ?
- talian 12y ago
  Interesting, it was armenians first, but then Greek Orthodox people, Assyrians and Syriac Christian are also added to list huh? Nobody suddenly dropped dead i guess, but deportation is one thing, genocide is another. Deportation of armenians were ordered by von Schellendorf, for the armenian separatist gangs were causing way much trouble on the eastern side, assaulting on mostly kurdish villages, as well as turkish villages. During deportation, kurds tried to take revenge of these assaults. Deportation, illnesses and such seems to have claimed some lives too. You can find some more details on these assaults in Soviet Russias military reports in 1915, such as Brigadier General Leonid Bolhovitinov's. The interesting thing is: sad stories do not seem to require proof. For example, if a million is dead, then it should have been easy to find mass graves on the route. Where did a million corpses go, did barbaric ottomans eat them? Another interesting thing is: you are in the middle of a world war, and you suddenly give up fighting the enemy, and start wasting your arms and forces on a million of unarmed civillians, seems logical huh? These sad stories are nothing but stories that mostly have roots in some event but grew more and more in peoples mouths in years, like religious fairy tales. People love drama, and when the story is touching, they do not seem to look for any proof for believing.