7 ms·

The Story of Schiit Audio (2014)

darklajid 12y ago
I didn't know about this company. Can anyone explain to my if this [1] is something more than snakeoil? 1: http://schiit.com/products/wyrd http://schiit.com/products/wyrd
- cnkeller 12y ago
  I don't have any experience with the Wyrd, but I have a MacPro connected to a Bifrost DAC and Asgard 2 amplifier running to a pair of Sennheiser 650 headphones (work/live in a noisy environment). Completely satisfied.
  - sondr3 12y ago
    Did you upgrade straight to the Bifrost/Asgard or did you have something like the Vali/Modi before or? I currently have those, but I'm looking at upgrades some time in the future.
    - loosescrews 12y ago
      I can't speak for cnkeller, but I first got a Modi and Magni. The Modi was good enough, but the Magni wasn't. The problems with the Magni were that it wasn't grounded and its volume pot sucked. The lack of grounding made it very susceptible to interference and crappy volume pot made fine adjustments in volume impossible. I replaced it with an Asgard 2 and have been satisfied ever since. I suspect that the newer cheap amps such as the Vali and Magni 2 have fixed these issues.
      - seanp2k2 12y ago
        It's pretty sad IMO when anyone selling a >$100 amp cheaps out on the volume pot, since it's a really obvious thing to upgrade, and Alps Blue Velvet pots are used in almost every hobbyist design. I would further question where else they tried to save money. This is a big part of why I like open-design amps / hobbyist / community-designed amps / kits.
        LewisJEllis 12y ago
        Note: the Magni is a $99 amp.
    - cnkeller 12y ago
      Good question. I went to the Bifront/Asgard setup directly without prior Schiit experience (though I did have Sennheiser experience). My previous setup was constructed for a different environment, e.g, speakers and a Denon with a built in DAC/amp. I can absolutely tell the details in certain albums using the new setup. Hearing the difference between FLAC/ALE and something encoded at 320bps or higher is really dependent on the material though.
- qb45 12y ago
  Their FAQ states that it provides its own 5V power supply for the downstream device and somehow retransmits the USB packets using a high accuracy clock. The power issue is definitely legitimate. USB power supplies are noisy and the noise can bleed to analog outputs if the soundcard has poor power supply noise rejection - I once built a USB-powered soundcard on the at90usb162 microcontroller and it produced a lot of background noise which was annoingly correlated with CPU activity. It went away when I inserted a 3.3V stabiliser between the USB power rail and the MCU, making it run from this 3.3V power. Reportedly, some commercial devices have similar issues (no links, but googling "USB DAC scrolling noise" may be a good starting point). OTOH, I'm not sure about the importance of reclocking. USB audio cards synchronize their DAC clocks to USB host clock and hence any USB clock jitter induces DAC clock jitter which causes some amount of distortion, but I know of nobody who verified whether this is important in real world scenarios. IIRC, clock jitter caused some real problems with SPDIF DACs back in 1980s and some people still feel more comfortable using "high-precision clocks".
  - mkozlows 12y ago
    Re "whether this is important in real world scenarios", in the context of high-end audio, there are four types of products: 1. Those that make clearly audible and measurable differences. Speakers, headphones, and upgrading from total rock-bottom near-broken electronics. 2. Those that make measurable differences that probably aren't audible. Various super-low distortion figures on amps and DACs, or going from 320kbps MP3 to FLAC. Almust certainly not detectable by human ears, but instruments can see a real, measurable improvement. 3. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are not audible. These are obviously worthless and snake oil. 4. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are audible. These are either magic (none that I've seen so far), reveal limits to our previous understanding of audio measurement (these probably have existed at some point, but I'm skeptical that any current products qualify), or are actually #3 in disguise. I think the worst you can say about Schiit is that their stuff falls into #2 -- measurably, but not audibly, an improvement over some other thing -- and since they relentlessly refuse to make official claims about the audible properties of their products, I think that puts them into solid respectability as an audio company. The worst you can accuse them of, really, is unnecessary metaphorical gold-plating.
- cthalupa 12y ago
  At the very least, Schiit seems to be pretty upfront that it probably doesn't help with audio quality in most cases: ++++++++++ Sonic benefits? That’s a lot of hoo-ha! You’re right. There’s no reason this should make any system sound better. Although we can measure the difference in USB power supply noise, it really shouldn’t matter. Despite this, some listeners have said that there are sonic benefits from using Wyrd. Us, we remain Swiss on the matter—we don’t do the hard sell by promising sonic nirvana. Are you saying I need to get this thing if I have a USB DAC? Nope, not at all. Most USB DACs work just fine when running on computer power, without any hitches, glitches, or strange noises. However, if you have USB power problems, this is a great way to eliminate them. Especially if it’s a USB-powered DAC. Well, I could just buy a $20 powered hub if I’m having USB port power management problems, right? Yep you can, and yep, that would solve that problem. ++++++++++ There's plenty of snake oil to go around in the audiophile community, but Schiit has always seemed to be especially forthright about what their products can and can't do. (Disclaimer: I own a fair amount of Schiit gear and am a very satisfied customer, so I'm definitely biased positively towards the company)
- ggreer 12y ago
  Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones. One Head-Fi user recorded a video of this happening. NWAvGuy tried to get answers from Jason Stoddard and ended up being banned from the Head-Fi forums. The whole fiasco is summarized on NWAvGuy's blog.[1] Of course NWAvGuy isn't the most tactful person, but Head-Fi's reaction seems quite overzealous. 1. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html
  - mkozlows 12y ago
    Your tenses are wrong. They used to have that problem, but they fixed it (including a retro-fix for previously sold units), and no current models have that issue.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - cthalupa 12y ago
    >Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones. Early versions of the product came without a power relay, with the implication being you should have the volume pot all the way down, and unplug your headphones before ever turning the amp on or off. That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment, which both Stoddard and Moffat came from. Not so much in the market that they were targeting with the Asgard. Since then, they've added a relay to all of their amps that need one, and have offered to add one to any amp that was sold prior to this for free. Stoddard goes over the incident with the Schiit side of the story at http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/765#post_10463052 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of... NWAvGuy wasn't actually banned for his interactions with Schiit, but due to the very strict advertising rules at Head-Fi. http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thread-long-live-the-wizard-the-former-ha-appreciation-thread/150#post_8144761 http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thre... The Asgard never actually permanently damaged or destroyed any headphones. The Schiit Lyr, however, did kill a $1.5k pair of Ultrasones Ed 8s, but this was due to an actual defect with a specific unit. Schiit replaced the Ultrasone and the Lyr for the owner.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  Audiophiles are made to be parted from their money.
- smoyer 12y ago
  If you feed the computer's 5VDC supply (from the computer's USB port) into the DAC, it might not be as flat as you'd like. Cheap computers regulate their 5VDC supplies to the requirements of the digital logic that makes up the computer. If you want to provide cleaner power to a USB device, you provide it with an external power supply. Since DACs (or ADCs for audio input) have analog sections, you have to deliver power that meets those specifications. You might also choose to provide filtering on the USB signal lines if your USB device's circuitry is susceptible to digital noise. USB signals are digital (approximately square waves) which contain harmonics that aren't needed to successfully decode the signal on the receiving end. Filter those out as well as high-frequency transients caused by other devices in the computer. CAVEAT: I know nothing about the Schiit device.
CamperBob2 12y ago
From the company's 'About' page: Do you seriously make your stuff in the USA? Yep. We worked long and hard to get our designs and chassis so they could be assembled by first-world labor for prices similar to the Chinese. ... But wouldn’t it be cheaper doing it in China? Maybe. But we’re not going to find out. Well, hell, all your parts are probably Chinese anyway, right? Um, no. The majority of our parts, on a total cost basis, come from right here in the USA, from companies manufacturing their products in the USA. ... As the Least Interesting Guy in the Hardware World, I don't always start companies, but when I do, I always make sure to insult 75% of my potential market.
- cthalupa 12y ago
  I'm not entirely sure that I'd consider that insulting, but, from the forward: Be memorable—this isn’t about getting everyone to like you, this is about getting some people to love you. The company isn't built around catering to a massive amount of people, but instead a niche. And there's definitely a market out there that is very much swayed by the "Made in the USA, from parts sourced in the USA" line of rhetoric
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    Yeah, absolutely, and I really like a lot of what I'm reading in the .PDF that darinf put together. But this is still an instance of taking the low road. We all live on the same planet, and commercial jingoism isn't the way forward. Edit: if you "aren't sure if you consider it insulting," try reversing the roles. Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible. How do you suppose that will play in Peoria?
    - throwawayaway 12y ago
      official chinese military grade stuff? sign me up. people who are opinionated can sometimes be talented, i don't take it as a negative indicator.
hoipaloi 12y ago
NwAvGuy is the truly interesting story, NwAvGuy was some anonymous person who went to audio forums and warred on Schiit pointing out technical problems with their products and the way they do their marketing. I guess someone said if he knew so much about audio why didn't he go out and design and build his own stuff and so he did exactly that designing a headphone amp that has "legendary" status, and then he disappeared... His headphone amp: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.br/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.br/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html
- bravura 12y ago
  Some previous discussion about NwAvGuy on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7451062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7451062
bootload 12y ago
"... But when it came time to order screws, that $800 almost brought the whole mess down. ..." The best line from this factory tour at SME [0], a maker of high precision audio [1] is, 'we make our own screws'. [2] [0] History of SME, http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [1] http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xQkexHT-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xQkexHT-M
miles 12y ago
Here is a PDF version of the book put together by darinf: https://mega.co.nz/#!RU0SVD5I!9Dn7tK_tXDvjoRCfJ7vV5JFn43-lu1avhxivLnbMWqE https://mega.co.nz/#!RU0SVD5I!9Dn7tK_tXDvjoRCfJ7vV5JFn43-lu1... with Jason's blessing: http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/3720#post_11041582 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of...
andyidsinga 12y ago
Skimming the Contents - this really caught my eye and I had a good laugh: "Chapter 6: The First Order Is…For Something We’re Not Selling" ...I'll at least be reading one chapter :)
karambahh 12y ago
I knew nothing about Schitt, next to nothing about audio, but I hold a MSc in EE and CS and I'm the CTO of a Saas company. This book is definitely a good read, full of insight and fun to read
ScottBurson 12y ago
“Yeah, but sometimes you just gotta say, ‘what the heck!’” (Except without the h and e, replace with f and u.) ?? You call yourselves Schiit Audio but you can't bring yourself to write "fuck"??
- yitchelle 12y ago
  That's why their name is Schiit Audio, not Shit Audio. It all part of their cunning marketing plan.

I didn't know about this company. Can anyone explain to my if this [1] is something more than snakeoil? 1: http://schiit.com/products/wyrd http://schiit.com/products/wyrd

cnkeller 12y ago
I don't have any experience with the Wyrd, but I have a MacPro connected to a Bifrost DAC and Asgard 2 amplifier running to a pair of Sennheiser 650 headphones (work/live in a noisy environment). Completely satisfied.
- sondr3 12y ago
  Did you upgrade straight to the Bifrost/Asgard or did you have something like the Vali/Modi before or? I currently have those, but I'm looking at upgrades some time in the future.
  - loosescrews 12y ago
    I can't speak for cnkeller, but I first got a Modi and Magni. The Modi was good enough, but the Magni wasn't. The problems with the Magni were that it wasn't grounded and its volume pot sucked. The lack of grounding made it very susceptible to interference and crappy volume pot made fine adjustments in volume impossible. I replaced it with an Asgard 2 and have been satisfied ever since. I suspect that the newer cheap amps such as the Vali and Magni 2 have fixed these issues.
    - seanp2k2 12y ago
      It's pretty sad IMO when anyone selling a >$100 amp cheaps out on the volume pot, since it's a really obvious thing to upgrade, and Alps Blue Velvet pots are used in almost every hobbyist design. I would further question where else they tried to save money. This is a big part of why I like open-design amps / hobbyist / community-designed amps / kits.
      - LewisJEllis 12y ago
        Note: the Magni is a $99 amp.
  - cnkeller 12y ago
    Good question. I went to the Bifront/Asgard setup directly without prior Schiit experience (though I did have Sennheiser experience). My previous setup was constructed for a different environment, e.g, speakers and a Denon with a built in DAC/amp. I can absolutely tell the details in certain albums using the new setup. Hearing the difference between FLAC/ALE and something encoded at 320bps or higher is really dependent on the material though.
qb45 12y ago
Their FAQ states that it provides its own 5V power supply for the downstream device and somehow retransmits the USB packets using a high accuracy clock. The power issue is definitely legitimate. USB power supplies are noisy and the noise can bleed to analog outputs if the soundcard has poor power supply noise rejection - I once built a USB-powered soundcard on the at90usb162 microcontroller and it produced a lot of background noise which was annoingly correlated with CPU activity. It went away when I inserted a 3.3V stabiliser between the USB power rail and the MCU, making it run from this 3.3V power. Reportedly, some commercial devices have similar issues (no links, but googling "USB DAC scrolling noise" may be a good starting point). OTOH, I'm not sure about the importance of reclocking. USB audio cards synchronize their DAC clocks to USB host clock and hence any USB clock jitter induces DAC clock jitter which causes some amount of distortion, but I know of nobody who verified whether this is important in real world scenarios. IIRC, clock jitter caused some real problems with SPDIF DACs back in 1980s and some people still feel more comfortable using "high-precision clocks".
- mkozlows 12y ago
  Re "whether this is important in real world scenarios", in the context of high-end audio, there are four types of products: 1. Those that make clearly audible and measurable differences. Speakers, headphones, and upgrading from total rock-bottom near-broken electronics. 2. Those that make measurable differences that probably aren't audible. Various super-low distortion figures on amps and DACs, or going from 320kbps MP3 to FLAC. Almust certainly not detectable by human ears, but instruments can see a real, measurable improvement. 3. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are not audible. These are obviously worthless and snake oil. 4. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are audible. These are either magic (none that I've seen so far), reveal limits to our previous understanding of audio measurement (these probably have existed at some point, but I'm skeptical that any current products qualify), or are actually #3 in disguise. I think the worst you can say about Schiit is that their stuff falls into #2 -- measurably, but not audibly, an improvement over some other thing -- and since they relentlessly refuse to make official claims about the audible properties of their products, I think that puts them into solid respectability as an audio company. The worst you can accuse them of, really, is unnecessary metaphorical gold-plating.
cthalupa 12y ago
At the very least, Schiit seems to be pretty upfront that it probably doesn't help with audio quality in most cases: ++++++++++ Sonic benefits? That’s a lot of hoo-ha! You’re right. There’s no reason this should make any system sound better. Although we can measure the difference in USB power supply noise, it really shouldn’t matter. Despite this, some listeners have said that there are sonic benefits from using Wyrd. Us, we remain Swiss on the matter—we don’t do the hard sell by promising sonic nirvana. Are you saying I need to get this thing if I have a USB DAC? Nope, not at all. Most USB DACs work just fine when running on computer power, without any hitches, glitches, or strange noises. However, if you have USB power problems, this is a great way to eliminate them. Especially if it’s a USB-powered DAC. Well, I could just buy a $20 powered hub if I’m having USB port power management problems, right? Yep you can, and yep, that would solve that problem. ++++++++++ There's plenty of snake oil to go around in the audiophile community, but Schiit has always seemed to be especially forthright about what their products can and can't do. (Disclaimer: I own a fair amount of Schiit gear and am a very satisfied customer, so I'm definitely biased positively towards the company)
ggreer 12y ago
Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones. One Head-Fi user recorded a video of this happening. NWAvGuy tried to get answers from Jason Stoddard and ended up being banned from the Head-Fi forums. The whole fiasco is summarized on NWAvGuy's blog.[1] Of course NWAvGuy isn't the most tactful person, but Head-Fi's reaction seems quite overzealous. 1. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html
- mkozlows 12y ago
  Your tenses are wrong. They used to have that problem, but they fixed it (including a retro-fix for previously sold units), and no current models have that issue.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- cthalupa 12y ago
  >Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones. Early versions of the product came without a power relay, with the implication being you should have the volume pot all the way down, and unplug your headphones before ever turning the amp on or off. That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment, which both Stoddard and Moffat came from. Not so much in the market that they were targeting with the Asgard. Since then, they've added a relay to all of their amps that need one, and have offered to add one to any amp that was sold prior to this for free. Stoddard goes over the incident with the Schiit side of the story at http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/765#post_10463052 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of... NWAvGuy wasn't actually banned for his interactions with Schiit, but due to the very strict advertising rules at Head-Fi. http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thread-long-live-the-wizard-the-former-ha-appreciation-thread/150#post_8144761 http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thre... The Asgard never actually permanently damaged or destroyed any headphones. The Schiit Lyr, however, did kill a $1.5k pair of Ultrasones Ed 8s, but this was due to an actual defect with a specific unit. Schiit replaced the Ultrasone and the Lyr for the owner.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
Audiophiles are made to be parted from their money.
smoyer 12y ago
If you feed the computer's 5VDC supply (from the computer's USB port) into the DAC, it might not be as flat as you'd like. Cheap computers regulate their 5VDC supplies to the requirements of the digital logic that makes up the computer. If you want to provide cleaner power to a USB device, you provide it with an external power supply. Since DACs (or ADCs for audio input) have analog sections, you have to deliver power that meets those specifications. You might also choose to provide filtering on the USB signal lines if your USB device's circuitry is susceptible to digital noise. USB signals are digital (approximately square waves) which contain harmonics that aren't needed to successfully decode the signal on the receiving end. Filter those out as well as high-frequency transients caused by other devices in the computer. CAVEAT: I know nothing about the Schiit device.

CamperBob2 12y ago

From the company's 'About' page: Do you seriously make your stuff in the USA? Yep. We worked long and hard to get our designs and chassis so they could be assembled by first-world labor for prices similar to the Chinese. ... But wouldn’t it be cheaper doing it in China? Maybe. But we’re not going to find out. Well, hell, all your parts are probably Chinese anyway, right? Um, no. The majority of our parts, on a total cost basis, come from right here in the USA, from companies manufacturing their products in the USA. ... As the Least Interesting Guy in the Hardware World, I don't always start companies, but when I do, I always make sure to insult 75% of my potential market.

cthalupa 12y ago
I'm not entirely sure that I'd consider that insulting, but, from the forward: Be memorable—this isn’t about getting everyone to like you, this is about getting some people to love you. The company isn't built around catering to a massive amount of people, but instead a niche. And there's definitely a market out there that is very much swayed by the "Made in the USA, from parts sourced in the USA" line of rhetoric
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  Yeah, absolutely, and I really like a lot of what I'm reading in the .PDF that darinf put together. But this is still an instance of taking the low road. We all live on the same planet, and commercial jingoism isn't the way forward. Edit: if you "aren't sure if you consider it insulting," try reversing the roles. Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible. How do you suppose that will play in Peoria?
  - throwawayaway 12y ago
    official chinese military grade stuff? sign me up. people who are opinionated can sometimes be talented, i don't take it as a negative indicator.

hoipaloi 12y ago

NwAvGuy is the truly interesting story, NwAvGuy was some anonymous person who went to audio forums and warred on Schiit pointing out technical problems with their products and the way they do their marketing. I guess someone said if he knew so much about audio why didn't he go out and design and build his own stuff and so he did exactly that designing a headphone amp that has "legendary" status, and then he disappeared... His headphone amp: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.br/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.br/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html

bravura 12y ago
Some previous discussion about NwAvGuy on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7451062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7451062

bootload 12y ago

"... But when it came time to order screws, that $800 almost brought the whole mess down. ..." The best line from this factory tour at SME [0], a maker of high precision audio [1] is, 'we make our own screws'. [2] [0] History of SME, http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [1] http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xQkexHT-M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xQkexHT-M

miles 12y ago

Here is a PDF version of the book put together by darinf: https://mega.co.nz/#!RU0SVD5I!9Dn7tK_tXDvjoRCfJ7vV5JFn43-lu1avhxivLnbMWqE https://mega.co.nz/#!RU0SVD5I!9Dn7tK_tXDvjoRCfJ7vV5JFn43-lu1... with Jason's blessing: http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/3720#post_11041582 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of...

andyidsinga 12y ago

Skimming the Contents - this really caught my eye and I had a good laugh: "Chapter 6: The First Order Is…For Something We’re Not Selling" ...I'll at least be reading one chapter :)

karambahh 12y ago

I knew nothing about Schitt, next to nothing about audio, but I hold a MSc in EE and CS and I'm the CTO of a Saas company. This book is definitely a good read, full of insight and fun to read

ScottBurson 12y ago

“Yeah, but sometimes you just gotta say, ‘what the heck!’” (Except without the h and e, replace with f and u.) ?? You call yourselves Schiit Audio but you can't bring yourself to write "fuck"??

yitchelle 12y ago
That's why their name is Schiit Audio, not Shit Audio. It all part of their cunning marketing plan.