7 ms·

Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

36 points by jeremynixon 12y ago

danmaz74 12y ago
Interesting article. For the "black names" thing, though, I would be curious to know if there were any studies also comparing "stereotypical white-but-not-anglophone" names, for example Greek, East-European, or South-European names. And also, for example, non-traditional names that have no racial implications, like "Rainbow" or similar.
- rmc 12y ago
  I don't know about other ethnic names, but there have been studies with male name versus female name, which show men get offered more jobs and more money.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Yeap. And regardless of the gender of the person evaluating the candidate.
- disputin 12y ago
  "non-traditional names that have no racial implications, like "Rainbow" or similar" Aren't the races behind these names usually clear? In Africa such names are along the lines of Pretty, or Precious, and in the west they're Apple, or Peaches.
fcanela 12y ago
Being caucasian I have a hard time finding objective examples of etnic discrimination which I could give to people who thinks that it's a solved issue. This article provided me few of them, thanks.
- UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
  Blacks make up about 13% of the population but they make up 40% of male inmates in jail or prison. With such a huge disparity one can start thinking cultural issues (whatever they are) may be at play. Unless you subscribe to 19th Century "scientific racism."
rmc 12y ago
That is scientific evidence for the existence of racism people. To be real scientists, and rational, we must be willing to admit what the evidence says, even if it makes us uncomfortabl. Creationists think evolution means their religion is wrong, so they fight the evidence. People don't like to think they act racist, so fight the evidence.
Hytosys 12y ago
This article raises a question: how does one train their "fast" thinking? If someone reads this article and recalls all of the times that at least internally they passed a wrong judgement based on another's race, what can they do to prevent immediately thinking such things? I don't much like this intuitive answer: if you're simply aware of your tendency to erroneously judge, you can consciously act against it. Is there any way to train the subconscious? The lack of time to consciously address racism in some situations could lead to mortality. Awesome article; science is great.
- rmc 12y ago
  One way is to hide the information from yourself. I've heard of orchestras hiring by getting the applicant to play their instrument behind a screen. You can't see them, can't see their race/ethnicity, or gender. The only information you can use is the only information you should be using: how they play.
  - Hytosys 12y ago
    I wasn't satisfied with this answer for a whole week, but now I'm trying to figure out ways to integrate that hiring technique to hiring in other fields (programming, especially). Thanks!
happyscrappy 12y ago
Articles like this always leave out Asians because it does not fit the narrative and forces you to think about culture as a main factor.
- rmc 12y ago
  The narrative is "People are still judged based on their race/ethnicity". If Asians are hired more, then that's further evidence. And "culture" is one component of ethnicity.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelfdeberry 12y ago
  Bias goes both ways and biases effecting social status for Asians are typically positive. For example, if hiring for a Mathematician from three resumes, 1 White, 1 Black, and 1 Asian and being unaware of actual skill, the Asian would likely be considered first. In this case bias helped the Asian get a job that will raise their social status. There are negative biases towards Asians as well, but they don't have much effect on social status, such as being bad drivers. There are also positive biases towards Blacks, but the those positive biases don't have much effect on social status. An example would be if basketball team had to be constructed from a pool of available players, again unaware of actual skill, the Black players would likely be picked first. I think the real point is that bias does have an effect on social status. Depending on what those biases are it could be a positive or negative effect.
  - unclebucknasty 12y ago
    I'm not sure that "positive" is the right word here. Biases seem to be frequently double-edged at a minimum. The negative consequence is more obvious in your basketball example. Picking blacks for a basketball team simply because they are black is not positive. It is part of a system of thinking, which says that "blacks are good at these things". The corollary is that "blacks are not good at these other things". So, even what you might consider a "positive" bias has a reinforcing effect on the way we classify people and form other biases that are objectively and obviously negative in socially significant ways. Likewise, classifying Asians as good mathemeticians is part of a system of thinking that says they are less good at other things. All of these preconceived notions have some value attached to them which, collectively, have a direct bearing on social status. In short, biases tend to have a profound negative side even, or especially, when we are unaware of as much and/or believe they are OK.
stefantalpalaru 12y ago
Why is the belief that the human species has races just like cats, dogs, cows, horses, etc. so widespread in the US culture? Even anti-racism rhetoric takes this absurd proposition as a fact. Take this article for example: all the cases where the author talks about ethnicity he uses "race" instead.
- rmc 12y ago
  American-English is weird like that.
- icebraining 12y ago
  No, there's the belief that the human species has races unlike cats, dogs, etc. Just because the word is shared with the scientific concept doesn't mean it's believed to be the same thing. It's simply a remnant of the times when that was the general belief.
  - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
    "There is great genetic diversity within all human populations. Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past." - American Association of Physical Anthropologists, 1996 - http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2001%29/articles/AAPA_race.pdf http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2...
    - icebraining 12y ago
      You missed my point. No, the human species doesn't have races in the scientific sense. What you shouldn't assume is that all mentions of the word "race" are referring to the scientific concept. Quoting census.gov: The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically.
      - 12y ago
pwr22 12y ago
I read about a study once where college students in the US were asked to provide their ethnicity on the front of their test papers. This had a notable negative effect on the scores of African-Americans due to unconscious bias, I believe it was presented as an example of priming
- tokenadult 12y ago
  Yes, the effect is called "stereotype threat"[1] in the psychology literature. A professor of psychology who participates in the journal club I participate in is deeply skeptical of how large the effect size of stereotype threat is in the real world. On my part, I like the interventions that have been suggested by the main stereotype threat researchers, to prime students with self-expressed affirmations of their core values to help them boost their own performance. [1] http://mrnas.pbworks.com/f/claude%20steele%20stereotype%20threat%201995.pdf http://mrnas.pbworks.com/f/claude%20steele%20stereotype%20th... https://teachersh.scis-his.net/tmrak/wp-content/uploads/sites/60/2014/05/Spencer-et-al-1977-Stereotype-Threat-copy.pdf https://teachersh.scis-his.net/tmrak/wp-content/uploads/site...
aaronharnly 12y ago
I do a lot of hiring. It drives me crazy that applicant names (which signal gender and ethnicity) are literally the first thing I see in our candidate screening system. So I wrote a GreaseMonkey script to replace candidate names with dictionary words. It isn't perfect -- names show up on resumes, and every other stage if the hiring process. I wish name-substitution were a standard feature of these systems!
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  Awesome. In the Netherlands there have been quite a few studies where they'll send exactly the same resume and application to different companies but change the name, and they'll see Mohammed invited a lot less often than say John, or whatever, despite again exactly the same application. On HackerNews, iirc, there was an article a while ago about someone writing a script to automatically respond to housing ads, as he had a lot of trouble finding an apartment somewhere in Germany, Munich I believe. Ah I found it. So what he'd do is send out applications where he could just change out the name and see which ones get the best response. Here's the quote I wanted to highlight: > The conclusion from this little study, is that a girl with an italian name, gets an 90% answer rate, a guy with an arab name and is younger than 25 gets, 1% answer rate. The master of all, is the young munich guy who is around 25 As someone with an Arab name, this can get a little bit depressing :p And while I try to stay away from conjuring up victimization plots against me (I'd absolutely hate to go through life feeling as if my ethnicity is holding me back and that any trouble finding an apartment or a job must be at least in part related to this), I can't help but say that it feels familiar to personal experiences, as much as I hate to say it about myself. So what you're doing is absolutely awesome :) Thank you.
- UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
  Great thinking. Perhaps its me but I know for me, a woman in software engineering, I constantly worry about what my name signals to potential employers. I wish my gender could be erased while being evaluated as I don't wish for it to be unintentionally or intentionally a factor in evaluating my job qualifications. Or the quality of any work I might publish online. No matter if it works out in my favor or not. I am kinda disturbed by the trend of LinkedIn profiles because I believe you are (apparently? I think...) encouraged to upload a picture of yourself. We did away with including a picture with your resume for a reason, now it seems to be coming back? Seems as if employer tend to hire "potental friends" over potentally over more qualified applicants [http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/12/03/employers-hire-potential-drinking-buddies-ahead-of-top-candidates/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/12/03/employers-...] which I think is part of the gender/race/ethnicity divide. People want to surround themselves with others like them. As an aside, my experience seems to be that many employers of middle class jobs seem to expect candidates to come from a middle class upbringing and perhaps don't understand the opportunities that weren't available to some candidate due to growing up poor. Just my opinions and thoughts on the matter.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
The term "white names" drives me insane. It usually exemplifies the cultural ignorance and Anglocentrism of the speaker more than anything.
- icebraining 12y ago
  I'm sure mr. Sendhil Mullainathan, born in a small farming village in India, is completely ignorant about non-anglophone cultures.
wslh 12y ago
A must read paper related to this topic is "Cultural biases in economic Exchange? [2003,2008]" [1] [1] http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cultural_biases.pdf http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cul...
stared 12y ago
If you want to test your own _implicit_ biases (sexism, agism, homophobia, racism), there is a nice battery of tests https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/, which base on reaction times. There are two interesting things about it: - even if you are liberal, implicit biases may persist (because of various biological and cultural factors), - its about you (its easy to excuse oneself that implicit x-isms are only about others, less rational or something).
Houshalter 12y ago
It's not just race. Ugly people are incredibly discriminated against. Attractive politicians receive two and a half times as many votes as unattractive ones. Attractive people are far more likely to get hired and get paid 14% more. Unattractive people are twice as likely to be convicted for the same crimes in court, and have to pay damages twice as high on average. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/
- steveeq1 12y ago
  Good point. Whenever I read articles like this, I often wonder if we are over-optimizing for racial discrimination and under-optimizing for other other forms. Interestingly, the people who cry out the loudest for racial discrimination often could care less about the type of discrimination you just pointed out (from my experience).
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    The two concepts are IMO not so easily separable - see the widespread finding of blacks in the US to be "unattractive". Attractiveness is, despite the loud griping of evo-psych proponents, largely cultural. Our perceptions of race, of gender roles, of etc etc, contribute greatly to attraction. Discrimination in all its forms are often hard to disentangle.
    - steveeq1 12y ago
      Not always. Short people, for example, are biased against in job interviews and most people don't care.
      - potatolicious 12y ago
        The short people thing IMO supports my argument. There's a lot of evolutionary psychology drivel about how we're genetically predisposed to disliking short people due to lack of fitness, etc etc. But a lot of the bias against short people is cultural in origin and hasn't always been the case. See the historically shifting attitudes towards fat people (from envy to disdain, as societies have industrialized). We're taught by our upbringing and our surroundings to be biased against certain features in certain contexts - whether that's skin color, height, gender, orientation, or anything else. Some of this is colored by racism, sexism, or any number of other -isms we suffer from.
mwana 12y ago
This is quite interesting. In my relations, I have subconsciously witnessed racial bias at play without people seemingly aware. I guess a lot of associations we make are based off things we see and not consciously decide on in a forceful way that reinforces those beliefs to us as something we stand by. Much of it is down to nature. Minorities usually don't get preferential treatment when dealing with people who just don't relate naturally with someone they don't share natural similarities with, first-off physically. I think it's really great that we have strong movements against racism and other forms of stigma stereotypically-related but doing away with it totally remains a job of nature...and people just being naturally different. Am I painting a gloomy-picture, I hope not. I haven't come to a good conclusion on what needs to be done to shake the associations we make in our subconscious minds that affect others unfairly.

36 points by jeremynixon 12y ago

Interesting article. For the "black names" thing, though, I would be curious to know if there were any studies also comparing "stereotypical white-but-not-anglophone" names, for example Greek, East-European, or South-European names. And also, for example, non-traditional names that have no racial implications, like "Rainbow" or similar.

rmc 12y ago
I don't know about other ethnic names, but there have been studies with male name versus female name, which show men get offered more jobs and more money.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Yeap. And regardless of the gender of the person evaluating the candidate.
disputin 12y ago
"non-traditional names that have no racial implications, like "Rainbow" or similar" Aren't the races behind these names usually clear? In Africa such names are along the lines of Pretty, or Precious, and in the west they're Apple, or Peaches.

fcanela 12y ago

Being caucasian I have a hard time finding objective examples of etnic discrimination which I could give to people who thinks that it's a solved issue. This article provided me few of them, thanks.

UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
Blacks make up about 13% of the population but they make up 40% of male inmates in jail or prison. With such a huge disparity one can start thinking cultural issues (whatever they are) may be at play. Unless you subscribe to 19th Century "scientific racism."

rmc 12y ago

That is scientific evidence for the existence of racism people. To be real scientists, and rational, we must be willing to admit what the evidence says, even if it makes us uncomfortabl. Creationists think evolution means their religion is wrong, so they fight the evidence. People don't like to think they act racist, so fight the evidence.

Hytosys 12y ago

This article raises a question: how does one train their "fast" thinking? If someone reads this article and recalls all of the times that at least internally they passed a wrong judgement based on another's race, what can they do to prevent immediately thinking such things? I don't much like this intuitive answer: if you're simply aware of your tendency to erroneously judge, you can consciously act against it. Is there any way to train the subconscious? The lack of time to consciously address racism in some situations could lead to mortality. Awesome article; science is great.

rmc 12y ago
One way is to hide the information from yourself. I've heard of orchestras hiring by getting the applicant to play their instrument behind a screen. You can't see them, can't see their race/ethnicity, or gender. The only information you can use is the only information you should be using: how they play.
- Hytosys 12y ago
  I wasn't satisfied with this answer for a whole week, but now I'm trying to figure out ways to integrate that hiring technique to hiring in other fields (programming, especially). Thanks!

happyscrappy 12y ago

Articles like this always leave out Asians because it does not fit the narrative and forces you to think about culture as a main factor.

rmc 12y ago
The narrative is "People are still judged based on their race/ethnicity". If Asians are hired more, then that's further evidence. And "culture" is one component of ethnicity.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
michaelfdeberry 12y ago
Bias goes both ways and biases effecting social status for Asians are typically positive. For example, if hiring for a Mathematician from three resumes, 1 White, 1 Black, and 1 Asian and being unaware of actual skill, the Asian would likely be considered first. In this case bias helped the Asian get a job that will raise their social status. There are negative biases towards Asians as well, but they don't have much effect on social status, such as being bad drivers. There are also positive biases towards Blacks, but the those positive biases don't have much effect on social status. An example would be if basketball team had to be constructed from a pool of available players, again unaware of actual skill, the Black players would likely be picked first. I think the real point is that bias does have an effect on social status. Depending on what those biases are it could be a positive or negative effect.
- unclebucknasty 12y ago
  I'm not sure that "positive" is the right word here. Biases seem to be frequently double-edged at a minimum. The negative consequence is more obvious in your basketball example. Picking blacks for a basketball team simply because they are black is not positive. It is part of a system of thinking, which says that "blacks are good at these things". The corollary is that "blacks are not good at these other things". So, even what you might consider a "positive" bias has a reinforcing effect on the way we classify people and form other biases that are objectively and obviously negative in socially significant ways. Likewise, classifying Asians as good mathemeticians is part of a system of thinking that says they are less good at other things. All of these preconceived notions have some value attached to them which, collectively, have a direct bearing on social status. In short, biases tend to have a profound negative side even, or especially, when we are unaware of as much and/or believe they are OK.

stefantalpalaru 12y ago

Why is the belief that the human species has races just like cats, dogs, cows, horses, etc. so widespread in the US culture? Even anti-racism rhetoric takes this absurd proposition as a fact. Take this article for example: all the cases where the author talks about ethnicity he uses "race" instead.

rmc 12y ago
American-English is weird like that.
icebraining 12y ago
No, there's the belief that the human species has races unlike cats, dogs, etc. Just because the word is shared with the scientific concept doesn't mean it's believed to be the same thing. It's simply a remnant of the times when that was the general belief.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  "There is great genetic diversity within all human populations. Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past." - American Association of Physical Anthropologists, 1996 - http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2001%29/articles/AAPA_race.pdf http://www.virginia.edu/woodson/courses/aas102%20%28spring%2...
  - icebraining 12y ago
    You missed my point. No, the human species doesn't have races in the scientific sense. What you shouldn't assume is that all mentions of the word "race" are referring to the scientific concept. Quoting census.gov: The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically.
    - 12y ago

pwr22 12y ago

I read about a study once where college students in the US were asked to provide their ethnicity on the front of their test papers. This had a notable negative effect on the scores of African-Americans due to unconscious bias, I believe it was presented as an example of priming

tokenadult 12y ago
Yes, the effect is called "stereotype threat"[1] in the psychology literature. A professor of psychology who participates in the journal club I participate in is deeply skeptical of how large the effect size of stereotype threat is in the real world. On my part, I like the interventions that have been suggested by the main stereotype threat researchers, to prime students with self-expressed affirmations of their core values to help them boost their own performance. [1] http://mrnas.pbworks.com/f/claude%20steele%20stereotype%20threat%201995.pdf http://mrnas.pbworks.com/f/claude%20steele%20stereotype%20th... https://teachersh.scis-his.net/tmrak/wp-content/uploads/sites/60/2014/05/Spencer-et-al-1977-Stereotype-Threat-copy.pdf https://teachersh.scis-his.net/tmrak/wp-content/uploads/site...

aaronharnly 12y ago

I do a lot of hiring. It drives me crazy that applicant names (which signal gender and ethnicity) are literally the first thing I see in our candidate screening system. So I wrote a GreaseMonkey script to replace candidate names with dictionary words. It isn't perfect -- names show up on resumes, and every other stage if the hiring process. I wish name-substitution were a standard feature of these systems!

IkmoIkmo 12y ago
Awesome. In the Netherlands there have been quite a few studies where they'll send exactly the same resume and application to different companies but change the name, and they'll see Mohammed invited a lot less often than say John, or whatever, despite again exactly the same application. On HackerNews, iirc, there was an article a while ago about someone writing a script to automatically respond to housing ads, as he had a lot of trouble finding an apartment somewhere in Germany, Munich I believe. Ah I found it. So what he'd do is send out applications where he could just change out the name and see which ones get the best response. Here's the quote I wanted to highlight: > The conclusion from this little study, is that a girl with an italian name, gets an 90% answer rate, a guy with an arab name and is younger than 25 gets, 1% answer rate. The master of all, is the young munich guy who is around 25 As someone with an Arab name, this can get a little bit depressing :p And while I try to stay away from conjuring up victimization plots against me (I'd absolutely hate to go through life feeling as if my ethnicity is holding me back and that any trouble finding an apartment or a job must be at least in part related to this), I can't help but say that it feels familiar to personal experiences, as much as I hate to say it about myself. So what you're doing is absolutely awesome :) Thank you.
UrMomReadsHN 12y ago
Great thinking. Perhaps its me but I know for me, a woman in software engineering, I constantly worry about what my name signals to potential employers. I wish my gender could be erased while being evaluated as I don't wish for it to be unintentionally or intentionally a factor in evaluating my job qualifications. Or the quality of any work I might publish online. No matter if it works out in my favor or not. I am kinda disturbed by the trend of LinkedIn profiles because I believe you are (apparently? I think...) encouraged to upload a picture of yourself. We did away with including a picture with your resume for a reason, now it seems to be coming back? Seems as if employer tend to hire "potental friends" over potentally over more qualified applicants [http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/12/03/employers-hire-potential-drinking-buddies-ahead-of-top-candidates/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/12/03/employers-...] which I think is part of the gender/race/ethnicity divide. People want to surround themselves with others like them. As an aside, my experience seems to be that many employers of middle class jobs seem to expect candidates to come from a middle class upbringing and perhaps don't understand the opportunities that weren't available to some candidate due to growing up poor. Just my opinions and thoughts on the matter.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

The term "white names" drives me insane. It usually exemplifies the cultural ignorance and Anglocentrism of the speaker more than anything.

icebraining 12y ago
I'm sure mr. Sendhil Mullainathan, born in a small farming village in India, is completely ignorant about non-anglophone cultures.

wslh 12y ago

A must read paper related to this topic is "Cultural biases in economic Exchange? [2003,2008]" [1] [1] http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cultural_biases.pdf http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cul...

stared 12y ago

If you want to test your own _implicit_ biases (sexism, agism, homophobia, racism), there is a nice battery of tests https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/, which base on reaction times. There are two interesting things about it: - even if you are liberal, implicit biases may persist (because of various biological and cultural factors), - its about you (its easy to excuse oneself that implicit x-isms are only about others, less rational or something).

Houshalter 12y ago

It's not just race. Ugly people are incredibly discriminated against. Attractive politicians receive two and a half times as many votes as unattractive ones. Attractive people are far more likely to get hired and get paid 14% more. Unattractive people are twice as likely to be convicted for the same crimes in court, and have to pay damages twice as high on average. http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/

steveeq1 12y ago
Good point. Whenever I read articles like this, I often wonder if we are over-optimizing for racial discrimination and under-optimizing for other other forms. Interestingly, the people who cry out the loudest for racial discrimination often could care less about the type of discrimination you just pointed out (from my experience).
- potatolicious 12y ago
  The two concepts are IMO not so easily separable - see the widespread finding of blacks in the US to be "unattractive". Attractiveness is, despite the loud griping of evo-psych proponents, largely cultural. Our perceptions of race, of gender roles, of etc etc, contribute greatly to attraction. Discrimination in all its forms are often hard to disentangle.
  - steveeq1 12y ago
    Not always. Short people, for example, are biased against in job interviews and most people don't care.
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      The short people thing IMO supports my argument. There's a lot of evolutionary psychology drivel about how we're genetically predisposed to disliking short people due to lack of fitness, etc etc. But a lot of the bias against short people is cultural in origin and hasn't always been the case. See the historically shifting attitudes towards fat people (from envy to disdain, as societies have industrialized). We're taught by our upbringing and our surroundings to be biased against certain features in certain contexts - whether that's skin color, height, gender, orientation, or anything else. Some of this is colored by racism, sexism, or any number of other -isms we suffer from.

mwana 12y ago

This is quite interesting. In my relations, I have subconsciously witnessed racial bias at play without people seemingly aware. I guess a lot of associations we make are based off things we see and not consciously decide on in a forceful way that reinforces those beliefs to us as something we stand by. Much of it is down to nature. Minorities usually don't get preferential treatment when dealing with people who just don't relate naturally with someone they don't share natural similarities with, first-off physically. I think it's really great that we have strong movements against racism and other forms of stigma stereotypically-related but doing away with it totally remains a job of nature...and people just being naturally different. Am I painting a gloomy-picture, I hope not. I haven't come to a good conclusion on what needs to be done to shake the associations we make in our subconscious minds that affect others unfairly.