3 ms·

While what you say is true, many countries will not allow a company to hire a foreigner if you can fill the same position with a citizen. From the perspective

by ProAm 12y ago

While what you say is true, many countries will not allow a company to hire a foreigner if you can fill the same position with a citizen. From the perspective of an American, it's often an uncomfortable fact that we pay taxes to the government who willingly allows companies to outsource or externally hire our jobs, The effect of this does cap/limit salaries for all involved. That is one side of the coin. The other side which I fully agree with, that more skilled and educated a population is the more enriched it can become,. There are great benefits to have a large number of smart educated people working together for the greater good.

winter_blue 12y ago
A couple of points: 1) Immigrants pay taxes just like everyone else. 2) With "government who willingly allows companies to outsource or externally hire our jobs" -- it sounds like you believe in the lump-of-labor fallacy. The idea that skilled immigrants take away jobs from natives is widespread, but generally false. See: http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs/ http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs... In addition, "government who willingly allows" implies that the U.S. is very immigration-friendly. Nothing could be further from the truth. Countries like Canada, Australia, the UAE, certain EU countries, etc. all have far, far more welcoming immigration rules. As a personal anecdote: before I got my current job, I had interviewed with Facebook, and they said that if I didn't make it through the H1B lottery, I could work at their office in Canada. The fact is, the U.S. is one of the hardest countries in the world to immigrate to; and from an employer's perspective, one of the countries that makes it hardest to hire someone from outside. 3) The idea that there is no shortage of skilled developers in the US is not corroborated either by fact, or my personal experience. My company has had a really hard time finding skilled developers. We've been hiring smart people who have had limited exposure to programming (12 weeks of bootcamp) and who come from non-CS/non-STEM backgrounds, and basically training them to become developers. I know several people in the industry who all say that they've had a hard time finding skilled developers. Both higher-ups (managers, HR, etc) and developers have mentioned at some point or another the difficulty they or their company has had in finding good developers. Maybe it's just NYC. But, I don't buy into the idea that there are plenty of qualified developers in the US who are looking for a job.
anindyabd 12y ago
>> it's often an uncomfortable fact that we pay taxes to the government who willingly allows companies to outsource or externally hire our jobs I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens. It does stand when it comes to outsourcing, though. >> The effect of this does cap/limit salaries for all involved Do you have evidence for that claim? Research seems to point otherwise [1][2]. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/06/immigration-helps-american-workers-the-definitive-argument/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/06/i... [2] http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/peri_shih_sparber_05_feb_2013_TEMPO.pdf http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/peri_s...
- pmelendez 12y ago
  > "I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens" Not entirely true. For instance, if you are a Canadian you have the choice of paying the taxes to Canada and avoid the double taxation.
- ProAm 12y ago
  >> I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens. It does stand when it comes to outsourcing, though. Except they are paying essentially to come here and work, where as citizen tax payers should be paying to help enrich the place they live in and reap the benefits of paying taxes. The fact that they both pay isn't the point, it's what you are paying for. >>Do you have evidence for that claim? Research seems to point otherwise The only evidence I have is what the companies I have worked for pay people, it's a very limited sample size but its from more than 1 company.
tarikjn 12y ago
> While what you say is true, many countries will not allow a company to hire a foreigner if you can fill the same position with a citizen. Actually, I am very curious to know for my own instruction which countries in the world do that for highly skilled people, ie. holds a BS/Masters and a job offer from the company. Can you provide examples?
- ProAm 12y ago
  Im not sure I understand your question fully. But if you are asking which countries require you to hire locally before foreign France and Australia are two examples.
  - tarikjn 12y ago
    Yes, that is my question. So I did some research and: France: - doesn't have quotas on work visas - doesn't place any limitations [1] on: - skilled workers - transferees - young professionals Australia: - doesn't have quotas on work visas - provide a work visa provided that you are either: - a skilled worker [2] - have a recent university degree Now the catch for the skilled worker in Australia is that there is a required market testing to prove that you can't hire an Australian worker for an occupation except that most occupations in skill levels 1 and 2 (managers and professionals, basically the entire range of H1-Bs) are exempt from it [3] except a short list of protected occupations which does not include computer jobs. So you are in effect incorrect. Does anyone have any examples of countries in the world besides the U.S. that impose such restrictions on our industry? [1] http://www.ofii.fr/recruter_un_etranger_192/index.html?sub_menu=2 http://www.ofii.fr/recruter_un_etranger_192/index.html?sub_m... [2] http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx [3] http://www.immi.gov.au/FAQs/Pages/Are-there-exemptions-to-labour-market-testing-in-the-subclass-457-programme.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/FAQs/Pages/Are-there-exemptions-to-la...
    - ProAm 12y ago
      Id have to look into all your footnotes, but I have direct experience with both countries and if they could hire a local to perform the job the visa would not be approved for a foreigner. There isn't a quota, they just dont get approved.

by ProAm 12y ago

winter_blue 12y ago

A couple of points: 1) Immigrants pay taxes just like everyone else. 2) With "government who willingly allows companies to outsource or externally hire our jobs" -- it sounds like you believe in the lump-of-labor fallacy. The idea that skilled immigrants take away jobs from natives is widespread, but generally false. See: http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs/ http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs... In addition, "government who willingly allows" implies that the U.S. is very immigration-friendly. Nothing could be further from the truth. Countries like Canada, Australia, the UAE, certain EU countries, etc. all have far, far more welcoming immigration rules. As a personal anecdote: before I got my current job, I had interviewed with Facebook, and they said that if I didn't make it through the H1B lottery, I could work at their office in Canada. The fact is, the U.S. is one of the hardest countries in the world to immigrate to; and from an employer's perspective, one of the countries that makes it hardest to hire someone from outside. 3) The idea that there is no shortage of skilled developers in the US is not corroborated either by fact, or my personal experience. My company has had a really hard time finding skilled developers. We've been hiring smart people who have had limited exposure to programming (12 weeks of bootcamp) and who come from non-CS/non-STEM backgrounds, and basically training them to become developers. I know several people in the industry who all say that they've had a hard time finding skilled developers. Both higher-ups (managers, HR, etc) and developers have mentioned at some point or another the difficulty they or their company has had in finding good developers. Maybe it's just NYC. But, I don't buy into the idea that there are plenty of qualified developers in the US who are looking for a job.

anindyabd 12y ago

>> it's often an uncomfortable fact that we pay taxes to the government who willingly allows companies to outsource or externally hire our jobs I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens. It does stand when it comes to outsourcing, though. >> The effect of this does cap/limit salaries for all involved Do you have evidence for that claim? Research seems to point otherwise [1][2]. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/06/immigration-helps-american-workers-the-definitive-argument/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/06/i... [2] http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/peri_shih_sparber_05_feb_2013_TEMPO.pdf http://economics.ucdavis.edu/people/gperi/site/papers/peri_s...

pmelendez 12y ago
> "I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens" Not entirely true. For instance, if you are a Canadian you have the choice of paying the taxes to Canada and avoid the double taxation.
ProAm 12y ago
>> I think your argument is weakened by the fact that H1B holders pay the same taxes as US citizens. It does stand when it comes to outsourcing, though. Except they are paying essentially to come here and work, where as citizen tax payers should be paying to help enrich the place they live in and reap the benefits of paying taxes. The fact that they both pay isn't the point, it's what you are paying for. >>Do you have evidence for that claim? Research seems to point otherwise The only evidence I have is what the companies I have worked for pay people, it's a very limited sample size but its from more than 1 company.

tarikjn 12y ago

> While what you say is true, many countries will not allow a company to hire a foreigner if you can fill the same position with a citizen. Actually, I am very curious to know for my own instruction which countries in the world do that for highly skilled people, ie. holds a BS/Masters and a job offer from the company. Can you provide examples?

ProAm 12y ago
Im not sure I understand your question fully. But if you are asking which countries require you to hire locally before foreign France and Australia are two examples.
- tarikjn 12y ago
  Yes, that is my question. So I did some research and: France: - doesn't have quotas on work visas - doesn't place any limitations [1] on: - skilled workers - transferees - young professionals Australia: - doesn't have quotas on work visas - provide a work visa provided that you are either: - a skilled worker [2] - have a recent university degree Now the catch for the skilled worker in Australia is that there is a required market testing to prove that you can't hire an Australian worker for an occupation except that most occupations in skill levels 1 and 2 (managers and professionals, basically the entire range of H1-Bs) are exempt from it [3] except a short list of protected occupations which does not include computer jobs. So you are in effect incorrect. Does anyone have any examples of countries in the world besides the U.S. that impose such restrictions on our industry? [1] http://www.ofii.fr/recruter_un_etranger_192/index.html?sub_menu=2 http://www.ofii.fr/recruter_un_etranger_192/index.html?sub_m... [2] http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/457.aspx [3] http://www.immi.gov.au/FAQs/Pages/Are-there-exemptions-to-labour-market-testing-in-the-subclass-457-programme.aspx http://www.immi.gov.au/FAQs/Pages/Are-there-exemptions-to-la...
  - ProAm 12y ago
    Id have to look into all your footnotes, but I have direct experience with both countries and if they could hire a local to perform the job the visa would not be approved for a foreigner. There isn't a quota, they just dont get approved.