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It originally derives from the Latin Orcus "Hell"[1] but if you refer to Tolkien's own dictionaries it is cast as an Elvish word meaning "monster", generally th

by pharke 12y ago

It originally derives from the Latin Orcus "Hell"[1] but if you refer to Tolkien's own dictionaries it is cast as an Elvish word meaning "monster", generally the same meaning it had in Old English, and used in place of and interchangeably with Goblin. There isn't supposed to be any kind of physical difference between a Goblin and an Orc in Tolkien's books but there are physical differences among subgroups within the larger Orc/Goblin species. I think this is the source of confusion that has led to there being a distinction between Orcs and Goblins in later fantasy series that derive from Tolkien's work. In his books, Orc and Goblin are simply two words for the same thing. [2] If you dig even deeper into Tolkien's history of Middle Earth, you'll find that the Orc species or 'race' is actually derived from Elvish predecessors who were 'corrupted' and transformed by Morgoth (fka Melkor)[3] and so we have a literal statement that their 'evilness' is not a product of their biology but was deliberately inflicted on them. [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=orc&searchmode=none http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_origin_of_Orcs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_orig...

Chathamization 12y ago
Eh… “…and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.” Tolkien saying that they were bred to be this way indicates it is a part of their biology, as does the fact that Tolkien calls their race hideous.
- pharke 12y ago
  Nice selective quoting, how about the whole thing? "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." The word 'breed' does not only mean to cause an animal to produce offspring and considering Tolkien's knowledge and use of the English language I doubt he solely meant it in that sense. Especially if you consider the sentence preceeding your selection. "Slow arts of cruelty" would seem to encompass a vast range of influences and considering the larger background of war, industry, and nationalism that these novels were written against I would say that indoctrination and compulsion would be the stronger influences on the Orc's character. Reading some of the Orc dialogue in the books supports this as they are not presented as mentally incompetent but moreso as possessing a ruthless, limited, subjugated, and intolerant worldview. Hence the corruption and enslavement.

by pharke 12y ago

Chathamization 12y ago

Eh… “…and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.” Tolkien saying that they were bred to be this way indicates it is a part of their biology, as does the fact that Tolkien calls their race hideous.

pharke 12y ago
Nice selective quoting, how about the whole thing? "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." The word 'breed' does not only mean to cause an animal to produce offspring and considering Tolkien's knowledge and use of the English language I doubt he solely meant it in that sense. Especially if you consider the sentence preceeding your selection. "Slow arts of cruelty" would seem to encompass a vast range of influences and considering the larger background of war, industry, and nationalism that these novels were written against I would say that indoctrination and compulsion would be the stronger influences on the Orc's character. Reading some of the Orc dialogue in the books supports this as they are not presented as mentally incompetent but moreso as possessing a ruthless, limited, subjugated, and intolerant worldview. Hence the corruption and enslavement.