3 ms·

I agree - it's based on the less known parts of Catholic mythology (the riot of angels, origins of devil, "I won't go on my knees" etc). Elves and orcs are spir

by ajuc 12y ago

I agree - it's based on the less known parts of Catholic mythology (the riot of angels, origins of devil, "I won't go on my knees" etc). Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven, they can return from death, they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people). > I think that where it is racist is in that it simply does not include people or things external to the European mythos, they are seen as irrelevant and external, no one cares about them and whatever happens just doesn't include them. I don't understand this POV, and I encounter it very often, regarding different works of art. It's a world based on Catholic mythology (the riot of angels and origin of devil stuff), middle ages and celtic influences. It's already broad base to take ideas from. Diluting it further with influences from every other culture would make the setting less coherent, and author should be allowed to set the atmosphere of his book as he pleases. Sometimes I think people expect every story to use the exact proportions of cultures that modern USA has. This isn't what diversity is about - if every story is set in modern USA under different disguise you won't have diversity - you will have a monoculture. Diversity is only possible when different things are missing from different stories. EDIT: Well, Tolkien did started a monoculture, but this is not his fault - it is fault of his followers. He was original, he was just followed by carbon copies that used his works with almost no changes, repeating his choices over and over.

nickik 12y ago
> Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven There is no concept of heaven in tolkin. Elves go into the halls of mandos, its simular to the north religion. But its not eternal as heaven, in chrisitanity, they all wait in the halls of mandos for the next great song. > they can return from death Only one human and one elve has ever returned from death. Gandalf is neither. > they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people) That is not clear at all. Humans go out of arda but its not known where they will go and its not known if there sins will be gone. The not knowning what happens after death was a gift from elu. Also if I recall correctly, even the humans will be brought in for the last great song.
- ajuc 12y ago
  By "not going to heaven" I meant they don't go to where people go after death, which is presented as "gift of Iluvatar". Regarding "elves returning from death" - it was stated in Silmarillion that they can go from Mandos halls back to life and that it happened many times, not just once. Most of them returned to Aman, but some did to Middleearth.
  - nickik 12y ago
    > Regarding "elves returning from death" Could you tell me where this is written?
    - ajuc 12y ago
      I don't remember the exact place, but I remember reading it, and I've only read silmarillion, Hobbit and LOTR, so it must have been in Silmarillion. I googled for a while, the best thing I found is this: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/DeathinTolkien.htm http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/De... > Thus, Eru found a means to amend the situation. After a time of waiting in Mandos's halls, the Elvish fëa may, if it chooses, be reincarnated in a hröa identical to the one in which the fëa was formerly housed. The Valar were given permission and power by Eru to see to the construction of a new hröa for the 'houseless' fëa, and they can judge that a fëa may not be reimbodied, or at least not yet, in certain situations. Normally, the reincarnated Elf remains in Aman. Only in special cases is the Elf sent back to Middle-earth, generally because he has some task yet to complete there
sgt101 12y ago
I think that it's about interpretation; you can say "this doesn't include me or my friends -> it is racist" or you can say "this is a book written in a place and time where people didn't think about and confront these issues in the way we do now". If I was to write a book like LOTR (which would take a long time because doing potato printing is hard work, and crayons are quite poor media too) then I would be being racist because it would be an act of specific exclusion wrt. the people I meet every day. Dear old JRR was not in that context and given the context he was in it's a pretty enlighted tome (I think).
- ajuc 12y ago
  I have problems with both interpretations :) Second-guessing authors by their works and atrtibuting various -isms to them just because they created world without representing some parts of reality as they know it (or as we know it) still seems mean and unjustified to me. Was "7 samurais" racist? Would it be racist if it was created by Nigerians and still only featured Japanese people? According to your definition - yes. According to me - not at all. It's part of setting, people of all backgrounds may be interested in whatever cultures they please and they shouldn't need to explain themselves about it.
  - sgt101 12y ago
    Thank you for your respectful and well framed reply. It's nice to be able to carry on a civilized debate :) I think it's like the school yard. When I was a kid we excluded some kids in my class. We didn't talk to them or invite them to things, by this I mean that if one of these kids had approached me I would have smiled and chatted, but I would never have approached him/her because they weren't "in". This group didn't have any impact or involvement in most of what went on in high school. I am pretty sure that they really didn't want to be part of things after a short while. I don't blame them. Nowadays I feel a bit sick when I think about these kids, it was terrible, at the time I felt relieved that I was allowed to be "in", although I was not "cool", so I went along with what happened. I think this kind of exclusion is what I am referring to. JRR was not doing this; his world (I mean the world he was allowed to live in by his culture and society) did not include people from other races. So he did not exclude or fail to consider a group of the people around him, if I were writing and I did not acknowledge people from other ethnic groups then that would be different.

by ajuc 12y ago

nickik 12y ago

> Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven There is no concept of heaven in tolkin. Elves go into the halls of mandos, its simular to the north religion. But its not eternal as heaven, in chrisitanity, they all wait in the halls of mandos for the next great song. > they can return from death Only one human and one elve has ever returned from death. Gandalf is neither. > they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people) That is not clear at all. Humans go out of arda but its not known where they will go and its not known if there sins will be gone. The not knowning what happens after death was a gift from elu. Also if I recall correctly, even the humans will be brought in for the last great song.

ajuc 12y ago
By "not going to heaven" I meant they don't go to where people go after death, which is presented as "gift of Iluvatar". Regarding "elves returning from death" - it was stated in Silmarillion that they can go from Mandos halls back to life and that it happened many times, not just once. Most of them returned to Aman, but some did to Middleearth.
- nickik 12y ago
  > Regarding "elves returning from death" Could you tell me where this is written?
  - ajuc 12y ago
    I don't remember the exact place, but I remember reading it, and I've only read silmarillion, Hobbit and LOTR, so it must have been in Silmarillion. I googled for a while, the best thing I found is this: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/DeathinTolkien.htm http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/De... > Thus, Eru found a means to amend the situation. After a time of waiting in Mandos's halls, the Elvish fëa may, if it chooses, be reincarnated in a hröa identical to the one in which the fëa was formerly housed. The Valar were given permission and power by Eru to see to the construction of a new hröa for the 'houseless' fëa, and they can judge that a fëa may not be reimbodied, or at least not yet, in certain situations. Normally, the reincarnated Elf remains in Aman. Only in special cases is the Elf sent back to Middle-earth, generally because he has some task yet to complete there

sgt101 12y ago

I think that it's about interpretation; you can say "this doesn't include me or my friends -> it is racist" or you can say "this is a book written in a place and time where people didn't think about and confront these issues in the way we do now". If I was to write a book like LOTR (which would take a long time because doing potato printing is hard work, and crayons are quite poor media too) then I would be being racist because it would be an act of specific exclusion wrt. the people I meet every day. Dear old JRR was not in that context and given the context he was in it's a pretty enlighted tome (I think).

ajuc 12y ago
I have problems with both interpretations :) Second-guessing authors by their works and atrtibuting various -isms to them just because they created world without representing some parts of reality as they know it (or as we know it) still seems mean and unjustified to me. Was "7 samurais" racist? Would it be racist if it was created by Nigerians and still only featured Japanese people? According to your definition - yes. According to me - not at all. It's part of setting, people of all backgrounds may be interested in whatever cultures they please and they shouldn't need to explain themselves about it.
- sgt101 12y ago
  Thank you for your respectful and well framed reply. It's nice to be able to carry on a civilized debate :) I think it's like the school yard. When I was a kid we excluded some kids in my class. We didn't talk to them or invite them to things, by this I mean that if one of these kids had approached me I would have smiled and chatted, but I would never have approached him/her because they weren't "in". This group didn't have any impact or involvement in most of what went on in high school. I am pretty sure that they really didn't want to be part of things after a short while. I don't blame them. Nowadays I feel a bit sick when I think about these kids, it was terrible, at the time I felt relieved that I was allowed to be "in", although I was not "cool", so I went along with what happened. I think this kind of exclusion is what I am referring to. JRR was not doing this; his world (I mean the world he was allowed to live in by his culture and society) did not include people from other races. So he did not exclude or fail to consider a group of the people around him, if I were writing and I did not acknowledge people from other ethnic groups then that would be different.