3 ms·

> all the bad guys in LOTR are basically dark and ugly. It's like saying Star Wars is racist because the Siths represent the dark side. In the western cultu

by aikah 12y ago

> all the bad guys in LOTR are basically dark and ugly. It's like saying Star Wars is racist because the Siths represent the dark side. In the western culture , the color black has a certain meaning.We could debate whether it's a source of racism or not,but you could make the exact same case for the bible,or other myths. > It's tricky in fantasy, because of how race-based a lot of the plot is. Well,obviously in fantasy, even dwarfs are not humans. I'm all for social criticism but I don't think one can read Tolkien and just say there is something blatantly racist in his books. Tolkien didn't invent orcs,trolls,elves or dwarfs,or dragons. He invented little, he mostly tried to aggregate different myths into a single one. I think sometimes people are trying to hard seeing racism where the is none. However studying dark/light black/white symbolism and how it affects choices in life(in advertising for instance) in western cultures is definitely a great subject.

riffraff 12y ago
> Tolkien didn't invent orcs,trolls,elves or dwarfs,or dragons I think he actually invented orcs, before him it was a synonym for ogre, IIRC (in fact this was puzzling for me as an young reader in italian, where both words translate to "Orco", either for Little Thumbling's enemy and Tolkien's orcs). (I agree with your comment anyway)
- pharke 12y ago
  It originally derives from the Latin Orcus "Hell"[1] but if you refer to Tolkien's own dictionaries it is cast as an Elvish word meaning "monster", generally the same meaning it had in Old English, and used in place of and interchangeably with Goblin. There isn't supposed to be any kind of physical difference between a Goblin and an Orc in Tolkien's books but there are physical differences among subgroups within the larger Orc/Goblin species. I think this is the source of confusion that has led to there being a distinction between Orcs and Goblins in later fantasy series that derive from Tolkien's work. In his books, Orc and Goblin are simply two words for the same thing. [2] If you dig even deeper into Tolkien's history of Middle Earth, you'll find that the Orc species or 'race' is actually derived from Elvish predecessors who were 'corrupted' and transformed by Morgoth (fka Melkor)[3] and so we have a literal statement that their 'evilness' is not a product of their biology but was deliberately inflicted on them. [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=orc&searchmode=none http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_origin_of_Orcs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_orig...
  - Chathamization 12y ago
    Eh… “…and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.” Tolkien saying that they were bred to be this way indicates it is a part of their biology, as does the fact that Tolkien calls their race hideous.
    - pharke 12y ago
      Nice selective quoting, how about the whole thing? "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." The word 'breed' does not only mean to cause an animal to produce offspring and considering Tolkien's knowledge and use of the English language I doubt he solely meant it in that sense. Especially if you consider the sentence preceeding your selection. "Slow arts of cruelty" would seem to encompass a vast range of influences and considering the larger background of war, industry, and nationalism that these novels were written against I would say that indoctrination and compulsion would be the stronger influences on the Orc's character. Reading some of the Orc dialogue in the books supports this as they are not presented as mentally incompetent but moreso as possessing a ruthless, limited, subjugated, and intolerant worldview. Hence the corruption and enslavement.
akanet 12y ago
> It's like saying Star Wars is racist because the Siths represent the dark side. I would say that, if I were inclined to spare Star Wars serious critical thought. I understand that blackness is a Western cultural symbol. I also understand that Tolkein did not invent dragons. That doesn't mean he isn't responsible for the content of his work. When you make an entire sentient race (species?) of people in a work both ugly from a human perspective AND evil, what are you saying? Certainly you are saying some things that have roots in a lot of Western mythology, but you are also probably being at least just a wee bit racist.
- simonh 12y ago
  That's far from accurate. As I have pointed out previously elsewhere (but will expand on here), light meaning illumination and dark meaning darkness are universal proxies for good and evil or life and death around the world, including many and quite possibly all African mythologies. It's there in Voodoo in spades, and in Hinduism. It's got nothing to do with skin colour. I'm not aware of Tolkien says anything about other races of human being either more or less likely to be corrupted and pleanty of 'white guys' get corrupted into evil. Orcs aren't human, nor are elves and their metaphysical natures are different from those of humans. By casting Orcs the way he does Tolkien isn't saying anything about the corruptability or otherwise of humanity or any race of it. He's just borrowing elements of otherness and alienness from real world myths about fairytale creatures some of which are inimical to humans and conventional morality.

by aikah 12y ago

riffraff 12y ago

> Tolkien didn't invent orcs,trolls,elves or dwarfs,or dragons I think he actually invented orcs, before him it was a synonym for ogre, IIRC (in fact this was puzzling for me as an young reader in italian, where both words translate to "Orco", either for Little Thumbling's enemy and Tolkien's orcs). (I agree with your comment anyway)

pharke 12y ago
It originally derives from the Latin Orcus "Hell"[1] but if you refer to Tolkien's own dictionaries it is cast as an Elvish word meaning "monster", generally the same meaning it had in Old English, and used in place of and interchangeably with Goblin. There isn't supposed to be any kind of physical difference between a Goblin and an Orc in Tolkien's books but there are physical differences among subgroups within the larger Orc/Goblin species. I think this is the source of confusion that has led to there being a distinction between Orcs and Goblins in later fantasy series that derive from Tolkien's work. In his books, Orc and Goblin are simply two words for the same thing. [2] If you dig even deeper into Tolkien's history of Middle Earth, you'll find that the Orc species or 'race' is actually derived from Elvish predecessors who were 'corrupted' and transformed by Morgoth (fka Melkor)[3] and so we have a literal statement that their 'evilness' is not a product of their biology but was deliberately inflicted on them. [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=orc&searchmode=none http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&searc... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_origin_of_Orcs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29#The_orig...
- Chathamization 12y ago
  Eh… “…and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.” Tolkien saying that they were bred to be this way indicates it is a part of their biology, as does the fact that Tolkien calls their race hideous.
  - pharke 12y ago
    Nice selective quoting, how about the whole thing? "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." The word 'breed' does not only mean to cause an animal to produce offspring and considering Tolkien's knowledge and use of the English language I doubt he solely meant it in that sense. Especially if you consider the sentence preceeding your selection. "Slow arts of cruelty" would seem to encompass a vast range of influences and considering the larger background of war, industry, and nationalism that these novels were written against I would say that indoctrination and compulsion would be the stronger influences on the Orc's character. Reading some of the Orc dialogue in the books supports this as they are not presented as mentally incompetent but moreso as possessing a ruthless, limited, subjugated, and intolerant worldview. Hence the corruption and enslavement.

akanet 12y ago

> It's like saying Star Wars is racist because the Siths represent the dark side. I would say that, if I were inclined to spare Star Wars serious critical thought. I understand that blackness is a Western cultural symbol. I also understand that Tolkein did not invent dragons. That doesn't mean he isn't responsible for the content of his work. When you make an entire sentient race (species?) of people in a work both ugly from a human perspective AND evil, what are you saying? Certainly you are saying some things that have roots in a lot of Western mythology, but you are also probably being at least just a wee bit racist.

simonh 12y ago
That's far from accurate. As I have pointed out previously elsewhere (but will expand on here), light meaning illumination and dark meaning darkness are universal proxies for good and evil or life and death around the world, including many and quite possibly all African mythologies. It's there in Voodoo in spades, and in Hinduism. It's got nothing to do with skin colour. I'm not aware of Tolkien says anything about other races of human being either more or less likely to be corrupted and pleanty of 'white guys' get corrupted into evil. Orcs aren't human, nor are elves and their metaphysical natures are different from those of humans. By casting Orcs the way he does Tolkien isn't saying anything about the corruptability or otherwise of humanity or any race of it. He's just borrowing elements of otherness and alienness from real world myths about fairytale creatures some of which are inimical to humans and conventional morality.