4 ms·

Of course you have a point - the books were written in different times when very enlightened people held beliefs that would earn them approbrium today. In Tolke

by sgt101 12y ago

Of course you have a point - the books were written in different times when very enlightened people held beliefs that would earn them approbrium today. In Tolkein's defence though orcs and elves are actually the same race. Orcs are elves who have been perverted and warped by Morgoth; it's all rebel angels (Tolkein said that elves were meant to be angels) and war in heaven. Orcs have to hate elves and men and there is no prospect of redemption or reconcilliation for them, only victory will allow them to claim an endless life and other dubious rewards. LOTR is framed by the ideas of original sin and free will. Frodo is able to master and relinquish the ultimate power of the ring; Sam (the true lord) is never even touched by it. Both go back to accepting and being obedient to their destiny. It is not a clash of peoples or philosophies; Tolkein assumes that there is no battle of ideas because he is right. I think that where it is racist is in that it simply does not include people or things external to the European mythos, they are seen as irrelevant and external, no one cares about them and whatever happens just doesn't include them.

ajuc 12y ago
I agree - it's based on the less known parts of Catholic mythology (the riot of angels, origins of devil, "I won't go on my knees" etc). Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven, they can return from death, they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people). > I think that where it is racist is in that it simply does not include people or things external to the European mythos, they are seen as irrelevant and external, no one cares about them and whatever happens just doesn't include them. I don't understand this POV, and I encounter it very often, regarding different works of art. It's a world based on Catholic mythology (the riot of angels and origin of devil stuff), middle ages and celtic influences. It's already broad base to take ideas from. Diluting it further with influences from every other culture would make the setting less coherent, and author should be allowed to set the atmosphere of his book as he pleases. Sometimes I think people expect every story to use the exact proportions of cultures that modern USA has. This isn't what diversity is about - if every story is set in modern USA under different disguise you won't have diversity - you will have a monoculture. Diversity is only possible when different things are missing from different stories. EDIT: Well, Tolkien did started a monoculture, but this is not his fault - it is fault of his followers. He was original, he was just followed by carbon copies that used his works with almost no changes, repeating his choices over and over.
- nickik 12y ago
  > Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven There is no concept of heaven in tolkin. Elves go into the halls of mandos, its simular to the north religion. But its not eternal as heaven, in chrisitanity, they all wait in the halls of mandos for the next great song. > they can return from death Only one human and one elve has ever returned from death. Gandalf is neither. > they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people) That is not clear at all. Humans go out of arda but its not known where they will go and its not known if there sins will be gone. The not knowning what happens after death was a gift from elu. Also if I recall correctly, even the humans will be brought in for the last great song.
  - ajuc 12y ago
    By "not going to heaven" I meant they don't go to where people go after death, which is presented as "gift of Iluvatar". Regarding "elves returning from death" - it was stated in Silmarillion that they can go from Mandos halls back to life and that it happened many times, not just once. Most of them returned to Aman, but some did to Middleearth.
    - nickik 12y ago
      > Regarding "elves returning from death" Could you tell me where this is written?
      - ajuc 12y ago
        I don't remember the exact place, but I remember reading it, and I've only read silmarillion, Hobbit and LOTR, so it must have been in Silmarillion. I googled for a while, the best thing I found is this: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/DeathinTolkien.htm http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/De... > Thus, Eru found a means to amend the situation. After a time of waiting in Mandos's halls, the Elvish fëa may, if it chooses, be reincarnated in a hröa identical to the one in which the fëa was formerly housed. The Valar were given permission and power by Eru to see to the construction of a new hröa for the 'houseless' fëa, and they can judge that a fëa may not be reimbodied, or at least not yet, in certain situations. Normally, the reincarnated Elf remains in Aman. Only in special cases is the Elf sent back to Middle-earth, generally because he has some task yet to complete there
saraid216 12y ago
> Sam (the true lord) is never even touched by it. This isn't accurate, FYI. Sam has himself a Ringbearer moment when he imagines himself as a great warrior. Sam's untouchability was more a function of the brevity of his exposure. Nothing escapes the Ring's corruption (however that mechanism actually works): this is what Gandalf and Galadriel both knew well enough to avoid the temptation in the first place.

by sgt101 12y ago

ajuc 12y ago

I agree - it's based on the less known parts of Catholic mythology (the riot of angels, origins of devil, "I won't go on my knees" etc). Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven, they can return from death, they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people). > I think that where it is racist is in that it simply does not include people or things external to the European mythos, they are seen as irrelevant and external, no one cares about them and whatever happens just doesn't include them. I don't understand this POV, and I encounter it very often, regarding different works of art. It's a world based on Catholic mythology (the riot of angels and origin of devil stuff), middle ages and celtic influences. It's already broad base to take ideas from. Diluting it further with influences from every other culture would make the setting less coherent, and author should be allowed to set the atmosphere of his book as he pleases. Sometimes I think people expect every story to use the exact proportions of cultures that modern USA has. This isn't what diversity is about - if every story is set in modern USA under different disguise you won't have diversity - you will have a monoculture. Diversity is only possible when different things are missing from different stories. EDIT: Well, Tolkien did started a monoculture, but this is not his fault - it is fault of his followers. He was original, he was just followed by carbon copies that used his works with almost no changes, repeating his choices over and over.

nickik 12y ago
> Elves and orcs are spirits more than people - they don't go to heaven There is no concept of heaven in tolkin. Elves go into the halls of mandos, its simular to the north religion. But its not eternal as heaven, in chrisitanity, they all wait in the halls of mandos for the next great song. > they can return from death Only one human and one elve has ever returned from death. Gandalf is neither. > they don't get their sins forgotten (unlike people) That is not clear at all. Humans go out of arda but its not known where they will go and its not known if there sins will be gone. The not knowning what happens after death was a gift from elu. Also if I recall correctly, even the humans will be brought in for the last great song.
- ajuc 12y ago
  By "not going to heaven" I meant they don't go to where people go after death, which is presented as "gift of Iluvatar". Regarding "elves returning from death" - it was stated in Silmarillion that they can go from Mandos halls back to life and that it happened many times, not just once. Most of them returned to Aman, but some did to Middleearth.
  - nickik 12y ago
    > Regarding "elves returning from death" Could you tell me where this is written?
    - ajuc 12y ago
      I don't remember the exact place, but I remember reading it, and I've only read silmarillion, Hobbit and LOTR, so it must have been in Silmarillion. I googled for a while, the best thing I found is this: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/DeathinTolkien.htm http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/De... > Thus, Eru found a means to amend the situation. After a time of waiting in Mandos's halls, the Elvish fëa may, if it chooses, be reincarnated in a hröa identical to the one in which the fëa was formerly housed. The Valar were given permission and power by Eru to see to the construction of a new hröa for the 'houseless' fëa, and they can judge that a fëa may not be reimbodied, or at least not yet, in certain situations. Normally, the reincarnated Elf remains in Aman. Only in special cases is the Elf sent back to Middle-earth, generally because he has some task yet to complete there

saraid216 12y ago

> Sam (the true lord) is never even touched by it. This isn't accurate, FYI. Sam has himself a Ringbearer moment when he imagines himself as a great warrior. Sam's untouchability was more a function of the brevity of his exposure. Nothing escapes the Ring's corruption (however that mechanism actually works): this is what Gandalf and Galadriel both knew well enough to avoid the temptation in the first place.