4 ms·

I liked Moorcock books as a teenager, especially the Runestaff cycle, but they felt a little shallow to me when I reread them recently. Maybe it's because of th

by ajuc 12y ago

I liked Moorcock books as a teenager, especially the Runestaff cycle, but they felt a little shallow to me when I reread them recently. Maybe it's because of the new more sophisticated fantasy books I've read since then. Elric cycle was a little better in that respect, but still felt "backward". I think there are a few writers more deserving to be called "Anti-Tolkiens": obviously George R. R. Martin for Game of Thrones, and less known Andrzej Sapkowski with his short stories cycle about The Witcher (only 1 out of 2 short stories collections - The Last Wish - is translated to English, but it is worth reading just for the fresh and original view on fantasy book structure - it's short stories, nicely packed with interesting and original multi-sided conflicts, each short story shows different conflicts, and it's about characters and conflicting interests (and points of view), not about Good and Evil, Chaos and Law or anything like that. It's different from regular fantasy in the way that Stanisław Lem Cyberiad is different from regular sci-fi. Highly recommended. Novels by Andrzej Sapkowski are a little worse, but in the short stories he's brilliant. BTW Moorcook accused Sapkowski of copying his character, because Geralt (the Witcher) is old albino fighter anti-hero. It always felt to me like Moorcook should actually read the books - the similarities are just apperances - Geralt is very different (and more intersting IMHO) character than Elric. Good short review of The Last Wish with most points that make this a great book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP1cMitE530 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP1cMitE530

gambiting 12y ago
Lem is hands down my favourite Sci-Fi author, mostly because of how different he is to everyone else. His novels from 60s or 70s could have been written yesterday, they feel just as fresh. Unfortunately, it's incredibly difficult to recommend them to any of my English friends, as translations are poor and hard to come by. I've spent a little fortune trying to get a copy of "The Invincible"(my favourite) for a friend, because it was only released in English once, in New York, for two years(1971 and 1972), so good copies are very hard come by. And it's a poor translation because it was translated from Polish to German then to English.
- ajuc 12y ago
  I've heard Kandel translations of Lem are really good? Certainly the fragments I've read were fantastic - I didn't thought it's possible to translate the wordplay in Cyberiad and he did it: http://english.lem.pl/home/bookshelf/how-the-word-was-saved?start=1 http://english.lem.pl/home/bookshelf/how-the-word-was-saved?...
- vanderZwan 12y ago
  Are you aware of the recent translation of his Summa Technologiae to English? Have yet to read it myself, but read some very positive reviews!
  - gambiting 12y ago
    I had no idea there were any recent translations - I will have to give it a look! Thanks.
thenomad 12y ago
Stephen Donaldson also would be in with a good shot as the "anti-Tolkien" - the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are in many ways a mirror opposition to Tolkien's work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covena... Possibly the finest - and darkest, in the genuine sense of the world rather than "this has sex and violence in it" - portal fantasy ever written.
- zaphar 12y ago
  Completely agree. I greatly enjoyed the Thomas Covenant series as a teen. But really didn't like Moorcocks work. A pet peeve of mine is when a writer uses "Sex and Violence" as a crutch to stand out and "push boundaries". I don't enjoy that sort of writing and as a general rule find that the whole trope gets used to hide the lack of good writing in a piece. And the derision of Tolkien is just beyond me. The depths of Tolkeins characters is staggering. It seems like the complaints mostly boil down to Hero's with moral fiber are boring. I don't get it.
  - thenomad 12y ago
    Sex and violence are a way to stand out, and they can be used very effectively for that. Clive Barker springs to mind as someone who crafts genuinely original, brilliantly written stories from those elements, for example. But I agree, there's a tendency toward using them lazily - in the cast of fantasy, largely in the wake of Song of Ice And Fire. It'll calm down in a bit, I'm sure, just as the unoriginal fantasy doorstops tailed off in the late '80s as the D&D craze faded.
saraid216 12y ago
I'd recommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen which is, in a lot of ways, what Tolkien wished he could have accomplished in the sense of how much creative freedom Erikson had available to him and how much world-building he's able to consequently do. Erikson is an archaeologist, which informs his world-building in the same way Tolkien's philology did, and as a bonus, the world is informed not by Catholicism but concepts of evolution. Here's Erikson talking about the trope of "barbarians": http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/ http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-...

by ajuc 12y ago

gambiting 12y ago

Lem is hands down my favourite Sci-Fi author, mostly because of how different he is to everyone else. His novels from 60s or 70s could have been written yesterday, they feel just as fresh. Unfortunately, it's incredibly difficult to recommend them to any of my English friends, as translations are poor and hard to come by. I've spent a little fortune trying to get a copy of "The Invincible"(my favourite) for a friend, because it was only released in English once, in New York, for two years(1971 and 1972), so good copies are very hard come by. And it's a poor translation because it was translated from Polish to German then to English.

ajuc 12y ago
I've heard Kandel translations of Lem are really good? Certainly the fragments I've read were fantastic - I didn't thought it's possible to translate the wordplay in Cyberiad and he did it: http://english.lem.pl/home/bookshelf/how-the-word-was-saved?start=1 http://english.lem.pl/home/bookshelf/how-the-word-was-saved?...
vanderZwan 12y ago
Are you aware of the recent translation of his Summa Technologiae to English? Have yet to read it myself, but read some very positive reviews!
- gambiting 12y ago
  I had no idea there were any recent translations - I will have to give it a look! Thanks.

thenomad 12y ago

Stephen Donaldson also would be in with a good shot as the "anti-Tolkien" - the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are in many ways a mirror opposition to Tolkien's work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covena... Possibly the finest - and darkest, in the genuine sense of the world rather than "this has sex and violence in it" - portal fantasy ever written.

zaphar 12y ago
Completely agree. I greatly enjoyed the Thomas Covenant series as a teen. But really didn't like Moorcocks work. A pet peeve of mine is when a writer uses "Sex and Violence" as a crutch to stand out and "push boundaries". I don't enjoy that sort of writing and as a general rule find that the whole trope gets used to hide the lack of good writing in a piece. And the derision of Tolkien is just beyond me. The depths of Tolkeins characters is staggering. It seems like the complaints mostly boil down to Hero's with moral fiber are boring. I don't get it.
- thenomad 12y ago
  Sex and violence are a way to stand out, and they can be used very effectively for that. Clive Barker springs to mind as someone who crafts genuinely original, brilliantly written stories from those elements, for example. But I agree, there's a tendency toward using them lazily - in the cast of fantasy, largely in the wake of Song of Ice And Fire. It'll calm down in a bit, I'm sure, just as the unoriginal fantasy doorstops tailed off in the late '80s as the D&D craze faded.

saraid216 12y ago

I'd recommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen which is, in a lot of ways, what Tolkien wished he could have accomplished in the sense of how much creative freedom Erikson had available to him and how much world-building he's able to consequently do. Erikson is an archaeologist, which informs his world-building in the same way Tolkien's philology did, and as a bonus, the world is informed not by Catholicism but concepts of evolution. Here's Erikson talking about the trope of "barbarians": http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/ http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-...