4 ms·

It's sad no fix was released, but I find it equally sad it was marked obsolete after just 2 years. Obsolete basically means: we don't care about this device any

by stinos 12y ago

It's sad no fix was released, but I find it equally sad it was marked obsolete after just 2 years. Obsolete basically means: we don't care about this device anymore, buy a new one instead. In a world where striving for lower environmental impact should become core business of every company and individual because sustaining the current lifestyle of many is going to severely damage the planet in one way or another, this is not the kind of sign major companies (and they pretty much all do it in the mobile business) should send into the world. For a lot of people these companies are half gods, and what they do shall be believed in, it becomes part of their education. Making people believe buying devices and throwing them away after a just year or two is standard isn't exactly noble. Yeah yeah I know money is the driving factor behind companies, but that doesn't mean it cannot be combined with sending a 'greener' message into the world.

furrysheep 12y ago
Google's reputation for poor support and discontinuing things seems quite apt...
aragot 12y ago
A good reason is the zero-bug policy. In my previous company, we introduced this policy to limit the expansion of the backlog. Project Managers have to close issues that they don't actually plan to tackle, which is a very difficult exercise in honesty and transparency, but which provides customers with visibility.
- NotOscarWilde 12y ago
  > Project Managers have to close issues that they don't actually plan to tackle, which is a very difficult exercise in honesty and transparency I understand honesty, but I don't see how closing bugs makes it more transparent for the customers/users. Suppose there is such a bug you do not plan to fix. As a user, I can appreciate you stating that, but that does not mean the bug ceases to exist and should be hidden from the users' eyes. A few years ago, there were dozens of little bugs in GNU/Linux that appeared only for some people some of the time. NVIDIA driver issues, keyboard backlight support, and so on. These were also of the kind where we couldn't expect an official fix, but still there was a Ubuntu wiki, Debian wiki, Arch wiki, Gentoo wiki and many other places where you could find a workaround for your specific bug. To me, allowing "the community" to help itself on bugs that you do not plan to fix helps transparency much more than hiding your bug by setting it to "obsolete". It may not apply well to your particular company, but for Google's Android, a Linux distribution, it would be ideal.
  - d2p 12y ago
    Marking them as obsolete doesn't hide them; nor stop them being reopened if they're deemed worthwhile!
    - crististm 12y ago
      How does that work? You invest some time to fill the bug and then someone decides that it's obsolete. Then, if you still care, you reopen it? Is that right? Now what message do I get from this besides: "We don't care about your shitty two year old phone. Buy a new one now. It will be shit again in just two years. And don't bother sending bug reports. We're in the business of selling phones not fixing bugs."
      - throwaway90999 12y ago
        Yes, that's the honesty and transparency. The truth is that Google doesn't care; this bug isn't a priority. So the options available are 1) leave the bug open and ignore it or 2) be honest and close it as "obsolete" Both options have the same result: no bugfix. However option #2 is a lot more transparent. Part of that transparency is your being aware that Google simply does not care.
- slantedview 12y ago
  Yes, the message is transparent - don't buy our devices because we won't support them.
slg 12y ago
Let's not overreact. This is a bug report on an outdated phone and outdated operating system in a use case that will likely only be experienced by a very small subset of users. Should Google fix this? Probably. But that does't mean that not fixing it is a sign of fundamental problems with Google, the mobile industry, or consumer culture in general.
- reedlaw 12y ago
  Skype is a fairly popular application that is nearly unusable on this device because of the echo. I haven't had any of the other issues such as camera reboot. And I'm able to run the latest Android release. Overall I'm pleased with the phone except for this one issue.
- stinos 12y ago
  Yes maybe I am overreacting, but doesn't the simple fact a phone is considered outdated prove something is fundamentally wrong with mobile consumer 'I must have the latest' culture? There are enough electronics and other branches in which 2 years is merely a fraction of the lifespan of the device or product, and it would be unseen if the company would end support for it that soon.
  - slg 12y ago
    Sure, I expect my stereo, dishwasher, iron, dryer, electric shaver, alarm clock, and blender to work for more than two years. But how many of those devices would receive an update (or recall) to fix a bug that prevents the use of a single minor feature? Your Nexus 4 doesn't stop working when it stops receiving updates. The closing of this bug doesn't mean your phone is less functional than it was yesterday. You are free to continue using the Nexus 4 tomorrow exactly as you have been for the last two years. This decision only means that Google is moving on to more pressing issues that either affect more users or have a bigger impact on their bottom line.
    - cesarb 12y ago
      > Your Nexus 4 doesn't stop working when it stops receiving updates. That would be the case if it were an isolated gadget. But a smartphone is a networked gadget; if it stops being updated while the world around it doesn't, it will gradually lose functionality. This could be seen in Ars Technica's long review of every Android version (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/building-android-a-40000-word-history-of-googles-mobile-os/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/building-android-a-40...). As an hypothetical example, imagine what if your phone could use only SSLv2, SSLv3, and optionally TLSv1, using a SSLv2-compatible handshake (this is the case with Windows XP, for instance), and a new TLS 1.3 were released which forbids servers from accepting SSLv2 handshakes (this is seriously being considered by the TLS standard developers). As servers upgrade to the new standard, your phone would lose the ability to connect to them. And that's without considering security vulnerabilities. As time passes, more security vulnerabilities which affect your old phone are discovered and published, and without updates these vulnerabilities won't get fixed.
SixSigma 12y ago
Perhaps it is SIP that is marked as obsolete.
lucaspiller 12y ago
Aren't we as consumers partly to blame as well? We want everything cheaper, and so that's what the corporations have given us. 10 years ago it wouldn't have been out of the question to pay $2000 for a 32" LCD TV, but now even paying $500 would seem steep. Sure costs have gone down due to the technology becoming more mature, but it seems that really people don't want to spend big bucks on anything now. If Google offered a $1000 phone with guaranteed support and updates for 5 years would you buy it? Or instead buy a $500 phone now and another $500 phone in two years with whatever shiny new technology is available then?
- possibilistic 12y ago
  Your post made me cringe because I mentally extrapolated the trend for cheap goods you set up onto everything else. Honestly I don't know if it would be for better or worse without living in such a world, but I cannot fathom disposable computers, high end electronics, or tools. This also makes me worry about the concept of ownership. If we have no attachment to anything because the price is driven to zero, will that erode our values (craftmanship, upkeep, environmental stewardship, ...)? Sounds like a future full of walled gardens, shovelware, and products headed for the landfill.
  - fidotron 12y ago
    You're late to the party there. Computing power is now stupidly cheap, much cheaper than any of the mechanical devices you need to interface with it. This was most dramatically run home to me by my first Raspberry Pi, which cost me less than any of the peripherals I connect it to. Admittedly this is because I like having decent keyboards etc., but the interface is the hard part of the computing experience. Things that move are harder to build well than a few highly integrated circuits. So yes, our computers have been disposable for a while already. EC2 delivered the killer blow at the other end of the spectrum.
- stinos 12y ago
  Aren't we as consumers partly to blame as well? We want everything cheaper, and so that's what the corporations have given us. That is certainly part of the problem - it's exactly this mentality shift especially in mobile I am considering wrong. But I am sort of biased, an outlier maybe so I cannot objectively tell if it really is wrong in general, or if that is just my opinionated view on it. Because in the last 10 years or so I have bought electronics, tools, components of all sorts for which I explicitely chose to buy the usually more expensive one from a reputable brand because I learned by experience it would not only serve me better but also last much longer, and I never regretted those decisions (just to name some concrete things: woodworking tools like circular saw/sanders/dust extractor, bycicle components, DSLR, music player, kitchen appliances, oscilloscope). But not a phone: too much choice and not enough information available so I cannot possibly tell if I got one it would serve me like 5 years or more. So I just got a rather cheap dumb phone hoping it would last.
chdir 12y ago
There was a relevant article recently [1], [2] talking about similar issues & maker movement[3]. Also reminds me of camera manufacturers trying to stay on top of innovation by convincing customers to buy higher megapixels. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/29/the-cure-for-our-disposable-times/ http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/29/the-cure-for-our-disposab... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11298927/Young-people-are-lost-generation-who-can-no-longer-fix-gadgets-warns-professor.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/1129892... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_movement
SunboX 12y ago
I bought a good used Nexus 4 this week and installed Firefox OS 2.2, works really nice. I love it. This will be my main Phone for the next year(s).
- tunap 12y ago
  I bought an N4 a few months ago to test Sailfish OS on. Works OK, the SFOS beta release Dec 11th fixed a lot of bugs. My problem is the N4's 3G & wifi reception are inferior compared to my 5yo N900.

by stinos 12y ago

furrysheep 12y ago

Google's reputation for poor support and discontinuing things seems quite apt...

aragot 12y ago

A good reason is the zero-bug policy. In my previous company, we introduced this policy to limit the expansion of the backlog. Project Managers have to close issues that they don't actually plan to tackle, which is a very difficult exercise in honesty and transparency, but which provides customers with visibility.

NotOscarWilde 12y ago
> Project Managers have to close issues that they don't actually plan to tackle, which is a very difficult exercise in honesty and transparency I understand honesty, but I don't see how closing bugs makes it more transparent for the customers/users. Suppose there is such a bug you do not plan to fix. As a user, I can appreciate you stating that, but that does not mean the bug ceases to exist and should be hidden from the users' eyes. A few years ago, there were dozens of little bugs in GNU/Linux that appeared only for some people some of the time. NVIDIA driver issues, keyboard backlight support, and so on. These were also of the kind where we couldn't expect an official fix, but still there was a Ubuntu wiki, Debian wiki, Arch wiki, Gentoo wiki and many other places where you could find a workaround for your specific bug. To me, allowing "the community" to help itself on bugs that you do not plan to fix helps transparency much more than hiding your bug by setting it to "obsolete". It may not apply well to your particular company, but for Google's Android, a Linux distribution, it would be ideal.
- d2p 12y ago
  Marking them as obsolete doesn't hide them; nor stop them being reopened if they're deemed worthwhile!
  - crististm 12y ago
    How does that work? You invest some time to fill the bug and then someone decides that it's obsolete. Then, if you still care, you reopen it? Is that right? Now what message do I get from this besides: "We don't care about your shitty two year old phone. Buy a new one now. It will be shit again in just two years. And don't bother sending bug reports. We're in the business of selling phones not fixing bugs."
    - throwaway90999 12y ago
      Yes, that's the honesty and transparency. The truth is that Google doesn't care; this bug isn't a priority. So the options available are 1) leave the bug open and ignore it or 2) be honest and close it as "obsolete" Both options have the same result: no bugfix. However option #2 is a lot more transparent. Part of that transparency is your being aware that Google simply does not care.
slantedview 12y ago
Yes, the message is transparent - don't buy our devices because we won't support them.

slg 12y ago

Let's not overreact. This is a bug report on an outdated phone and outdated operating system in a use case that will likely only be experienced by a very small subset of users. Should Google fix this? Probably. But that does't mean that not fixing it is a sign of fundamental problems with Google, the mobile industry, or consumer culture in general.

reedlaw 12y ago
Skype is a fairly popular application that is nearly unusable on this device because of the echo. I haven't had any of the other issues such as camera reboot. And I'm able to run the latest Android release. Overall I'm pleased with the phone except for this one issue.
stinos 12y ago
Yes maybe I am overreacting, but doesn't the simple fact a phone is considered outdated prove something is fundamentally wrong with mobile consumer 'I must have the latest' culture? There are enough electronics and other branches in which 2 years is merely a fraction of the lifespan of the device or product, and it would be unseen if the company would end support for it that soon.
- slg 12y ago
  Sure, I expect my stereo, dishwasher, iron, dryer, electric shaver, alarm clock, and blender to work for more than two years. But how many of those devices would receive an update (or recall) to fix a bug that prevents the use of a single minor feature? Your Nexus 4 doesn't stop working when it stops receiving updates. The closing of this bug doesn't mean your phone is less functional than it was yesterday. You are free to continue using the Nexus 4 tomorrow exactly as you have been for the last two years. This decision only means that Google is moving on to more pressing issues that either affect more users or have a bigger impact on their bottom line.
  - cesarb 12y ago
    > Your Nexus 4 doesn't stop working when it stops receiving updates. That would be the case if it were an isolated gadget. But a smartphone is a networked gadget; if it stops being updated while the world around it doesn't, it will gradually lose functionality. This could be seen in Ars Technica's long review of every Android version (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/building-android-a-40000-word-history-of-googles-mobile-os/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/06/building-android-a-40...). As an hypothetical example, imagine what if your phone could use only SSLv2, SSLv3, and optionally TLSv1, using a SSLv2-compatible handshake (this is the case with Windows XP, for instance), and a new TLS 1.3 were released which forbids servers from accepting SSLv2 handshakes (this is seriously being considered by the TLS standard developers). As servers upgrade to the new standard, your phone would lose the ability to connect to them. And that's without considering security vulnerabilities. As time passes, more security vulnerabilities which affect your old phone are discovered and published, and without updates these vulnerabilities won't get fixed.

SixSigma 12y ago

Perhaps it is SIP that is marked as obsolete.

lucaspiller 12y ago

Aren't we as consumers partly to blame as well? We want everything cheaper, and so that's what the corporations have given us. 10 years ago it wouldn't have been out of the question to pay $2000 for a 32" LCD TV, but now even paying $500 would seem steep. Sure costs have gone down due to the technology becoming more mature, but it seems that really people don't want to spend big bucks on anything now. If Google offered a $1000 phone with guaranteed support and updates for 5 years would you buy it? Or instead buy a $500 phone now and another $500 phone in two years with whatever shiny new technology is available then?

possibilistic 12y ago
Your post made me cringe because I mentally extrapolated the trend for cheap goods you set up onto everything else. Honestly I don't know if it would be for better or worse without living in such a world, but I cannot fathom disposable computers, high end electronics, or tools. This also makes me worry about the concept of ownership. If we have no attachment to anything because the price is driven to zero, will that erode our values (craftmanship, upkeep, environmental stewardship, ...)? Sounds like a future full of walled gardens, shovelware, and products headed for the landfill.
- fidotron 12y ago
  You're late to the party there. Computing power is now stupidly cheap, much cheaper than any of the mechanical devices you need to interface with it. This was most dramatically run home to me by my first Raspberry Pi, which cost me less than any of the peripherals I connect it to. Admittedly this is because I like having decent keyboards etc., but the interface is the hard part of the computing experience. Things that move are harder to build well than a few highly integrated circuits. So yes, our computers have been disposable for a while already. EC2 delivered the killer blow at the other end of the spectrum.
stinos 12y ago
Aren't we as consumers partly to blame as well? We want everything cheaper, and so that's what the corporations have given us. That is certainly part of the problem - it's exactly this mentality shift especially in mobile I am considering wrong. But I am sort of biased, an outlier maybe so I cannot objectively tell if it really is wrong in general, or if that is just my opinionated view on it. Because in the last 10 years or so I have bought electronics, tools, components of all sorts for which I explicitely chose to buy the usually more expensive one from a reputable brand because I learned by experience it would not only serve me better but also last much longer, and I never regretted those decisions (just to name some concrete things: woodworking tools like circular saw/sanders/dust extractor, bycicle components, DSLR, music player, kitchen appliances, oscilloscope). But not a phone: too much choice and not enough information available so I cannot possibly tell if I got one it would serve me like 5 years or more. So I just got a rather cheap dumb phone hoping it would last.

chdir 12y ago

There was a relevant article recently [1], [2] talking about similar issues & maker movement[3]. Also reminds me of camera manufacturers trying to stay on top of innovation by convincing customers to buy higher megapixels. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/29/the-cure-for-our-disposable-times/ http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/29/the-cure-for-our-disposab... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11298927/Young-people-are-lost-generation-who-can-no-longer-fix-gadgets-warns-professor.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/1129892... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_movement

SunboX 12y ago

I bought a good used Nexus 4 this week and installed Firefox OS 2.2, works really nice. I love it. This will be my main Phone for the next year(s).

tunap 12y ago
I bought an N4 a few months ago to test Sailfish OS on. Works OK, the SFOS beta release Dec 11th fixed a lot of bugs. My problem is the N4's 3G & wifi reception are inferior compared to my 5yo N900.