4 ms·

We need to be thankful that pockets of extreme nonconformity exist to show an alternative to groupthink. People are so eager to mock or crush any diversity. Ave

We need to be thankful that pockets of extreme nonconformity exist to show an alternative to groupthink. People are so eager to mock or crush any diversity. Average people can't stand the idea that there are places in the world with extreme differences like (a) much higher or lower tax (using the U.S. as reference point), (b) drug attitudes far softer or much worse, (c) political structures (even the "evil" ones, speaking from the American POV), (d) far different cultural attitudes about sex, marriage, drinking, and every other moral issue. If the world didn't have all this diversity, we'd never know that there's an alternative to what we thought was the best way.

moultano 12y ago
For me that's the most frustrating thing about the Westernization of the world. Your own culture is always invisible to you. You can only see it in contrast to something else. If everything becomes the same, then we lose the ability to even see those things, let alone think about them.
- blfr 12y ago
  That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.
  - Zigurd 12y ago
    Alternatively, the Deep State in the US and the US-dominated parts of the planet means you're all going to live in America-lite with Disney's IP rules and Monsanto's food. You can keep the cookoo clocks and quaint costumes.
    - bro-kaizen 12y ago
      I've heard of the "Deep State" with respect to Turkey and Erdogan, but never in the American context. Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by that?
      - Zigurd 12y ago
        Basically the same thing, less formal, more diffuse, and self inflicted.
  - alextgordon 12y ago
    Western culture has relative "material prosperity" because our ancestors invaded all the other places on earth and fucked them up. See: Africa, the Middle East. In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Before you look down on the rest of the planet, consider that Europe is one of the best places to survive on earth. It's temperate, it's fertile, it rains a lot, it's geologically stable. Is it surprising that life is easy in Europe? Compare that to North Africa, which is one of the least hospitable places on the planet: a huge desert. Installing western culture in North Africa would not fix anything. Many people do in fact enjoy being "poor", as you put it, as long as they have everything they need in life. The western alternative to "poor" for these people is to work crazy hours in a factory. What kind of prosperity is that?
    - blfr 12y ago
      In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Americans occupied Japan for years, not to mention first destroying her military, and razing a few cities with fire bombs and then nukes. Mongolia's GDP (PPP) per capita is less than $10k. On average, a Mongolian is four times poorer than a French. The same is true for Russia which has immense natural resources, dwarfing those of Europe. Their ability to manipulate natural gas supplies hangs over the EU to this day. Soviets used to control what was once the breadbasket of Europe. Didn't do them much good. Actually, they managed to induce a famine there. Europe is rich because of industrial revolution and stable governments (more stable than elsewhere anyway). Invading other places was largely made possible by the technological advances rather than causing them. Before, Europe was nearly conquered by Muslisms[1]. Twice[2]. It was regularly raided for slaves (in 16-17th century[3], no ancient history), and starved of precious metals for much of its history. What kind of prosperity is that? The kind billions of people living in poverty today would take in heartbeat. They do whenever given a chance. Going as far as risking their lives to cross the Mediterranean or Florida Straits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna [3] http://www.jstor.org/discover/25818051 http://www.jstor.org/discover/25818051
      - 12y ago
  - moultano 12y ago
    Adopting democracy, free markets, and property rights doesn't mean you also have to adopt wearing jeans, generic pop music, car-based infrastructure and everything else.
    - blfr 12y ago
      It seemingly doesn't. Yet that's exactly what happens. With jeans, coke, and pop usually there first, long before democracy.
      - moultano 12y ago
        So you don't think it's reasonable to dislike one but not the other?
  - juliangregorian 12y ago
    Gross. Cultural imperialism at it's finest.

moultano 12y ago

For me that's the most frustrating thing about the Westernization of the world. Your own culture is always invisible to you. You can only see it in contrast to something else. If everything becomes the same, then we lose the ability to even see those things, let alone think about them.

blfr 12y ago
That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.
- Zigurd 12y ago
  Alternatively, the Deep State in the US and the US-dominated parts of the planet means you're all going to live in America-lite with Disney's IP rules and Monsanto's food. You can keep the cookoo clocks and quaint costumes.
  - bro-kaizen 12y ago
    I've heard of the "Deep State" with respect to Turkey and Erdogan, but never in the American context. Can you elaborate a little on what you mean by that?
    - Zigurd 12y ago
      Basically the same thing, less formal, more diffuse, and self inflicted.
- alextgordon 12y ago
  Western culture has relative "material prosperity" because our ancestors invaded all the other places on earth and fucked them up. See: Africa, the Middle East. In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Before you look down on the rest of the planet, consider that Europe is one of the best places to survive on earth. It's temperate, it's fertile, it rains a lot, it's geologically stable. Is it surprising that life is easy in Europe? Compare that to North Africa, which is one of the least hospitable places on the planet: a huge desert. Installing western culture in North Africa would not fix anything. Many people do in fact enjoy being "poor", as you put it, as long as they have everything they need in life. The western alternative to "poor" for these people is to work crazy hours in a factory. What kind of prosperity is that?
  - blfr 12y ago
    In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Americans occupied Japan for years, not to mention first destroying her military, and razing a few cities with fire bombs and then nukes. Mongolia's GDP (PPP) per capita is less than $10k. On average, a Mongolian is four times poorer than a French. The same is true for Russia which has immense natural resources, dwarfing those of Europe. Their ability to manipulate natural gas supplies hangs over the EU to this day. Soviets used to control what was once the breadbasket of Europe. Didn't do them much good. Actually, they managed to induce a famine there. Europe is rich because of industrial revolution and stable governments (more stable than elsewhere anyway). Invading other places was largely made possible by the technological advances rather than causing them. Before, Europe was nearly conquered by Muslisms[1]. Twice[2]. It was regularly raided for slaves (in 16-17th century[3], no ancient history), and starved of precious metals for much of its history. What kind of prosperity is that? The kind billions of people living in poverty today would take in heartbeat. They do whenever given a chance. Going as far as risking their lives to cross the Mediterranean or Florida Straits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna [3] http://www.jstor.org/discover/25818051 http://www.jstor.org/discover/25818051
    - 12y ago
- moultano 12y ago
  Adopting democracy, free markets, and property rights doesn't mean you also have to adopt wearing jeans, generic pop music, car-based infrastructure and everything else.
  - blfr 12y ago
    It seemingly doesn't. Yet that's exactly what happens. With jeans, coke, and pop usually there first, long before democracy.
    - moultano 12y ago
      So you don't think it's reasonable to dislike one but not the other?
- juliangregorian 12y ago
  Gross. Cultural imperialism at it's finest.