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> no matter how much we have been trained not to like NK. I get that you're skeptical of the U.S. government. For good reason. But nobody needs to be trained t

> no matter how much we have been trained not to like NK. I get that you're skeptical of the U.S. government. For good reason. But nobody needs to be trained to dislike NK (except, perhaps, North Koreans). Is your implication that NK isn't really so bad, and it's only a brainwashed reflex to think that it is? I, personally, really wish that were the case, for the sake of everyone who lives in NK. But it isn't. There are things much worse than the U.S. government. http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/north-korea http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/north-... Edit: You might also want to reflect on why it is that you're so willing to doubt NK's responsibility for the attack on Sony, but apparently pretty eager to believe that the U.S. is behind the attack on NK. Is the evidence for the latter claim somehow stronger than the evidence for the former? I would have thought the opposite was true.

woodman 12y ago
> Edit: ... First, what evidence? Second, the USG has demonstrated the fact that it cannot be trusted to tell the truth. That has been the funniest thing about the whole Snowden story, the cycle of lies and spin when the lie is exposed by an additional leak the following day. Third, Obama publicly threatened retaliation - so a hasty cyberattack by the USG isn't far fetched at all.
zenogais 12y ago
You do realize the US is doing or has done all of those inhumane actions attributed to NK? The proof is a simple Google search away. You might, instead, ask why you are so willing to immediately engage in such defensive argumentation in support of the US? Is it, perhaps, that you have been trained in a variety of ways to connote certain negative emotions with NK that you, however, do not connote with the US?
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  I'm sorry, but this lacks all perspective. We have, on occassion, done some of the same kind of things as NK, but not typically to the same extent, with the same level of brutality and control, let alone all at the same time, today. When, for example, have we done this? > The government practices collective punishment, sending to forced labor camps not only the offender but also their parents, spouse, children, and even grandchildren. These camps are notorious for horrific living conditions and abuse, including induced starvation, little or no medical care, lack of proper housing and clothes, continuous mistreatment and torture by guards, and executions. Forced labor at the kwan-li-so often involves difficult physical labor such as mining, logging, and agricultural work, all done with rudimentary tools in often dangerous and harsh conditions. Death rates in these camps are reportedly extremely high. Or this? > All media and publications are state controlled, and unauthorized access to non-state radio or TV broadcasts is punished. North Koreans are punished if found with mobile media such as DVDs or computer ‘flash drives’ containing unauthorized TV programs, such as South Korean drama and entertainment shows. Or this? > North Korea criminalizes leaving the country without state permission. Or this? > people arrested in North Korea are routinely tortured by officials seeking confessions, bribes, and obedience. Common forms of torture include sleep deprivation, beatings with iron rods or sticks, kicking and slapping, and enforced sitting or standing for hours. Guards also sexually abuse female detainees. (Yes, I realize we have done some of these things to CIA detainees overseas, which is truly terrible. But we're talking here about all arrest in NK.) Or this? > Forced labor is essentially the norm in the country, and workers are systematically denied freedom of association and the right to organize and collectively bargain.
  - ochoseis 12y ago
    The US used to do quite a bit of this but we've made great strides in the past 150yrs.
  - munin 12y ago
    Well there was the cop that extorted an arrested woman into giving him nudes, seizing the houses of the parents of people arrested for minor drug crimes, using children as leverage in civil asset forfeiture, solitary confinement, tacit approval of prison rape as reformatory, prison labor and private prisons, and the murders of union organizers...
    - pdabbadabba 12y ago
      Yeah. All that is bad. The U.S. needs some work. We agree on that. But read that NK human rights report again... I'm not sure you'll see anything in there about, for example, the behavior of a single cop. What's going on in NK is on an entirely different scale.
mkal_tsr 12y ago
Faulty intel about nation-state actions as a precursor to intervention has been proven to be an unsuccessful long-term strategy. Examples are left as an exercise to the reader. Questioning assertions should be commended, for the truth doesn't fear investigation.
wahsd 12y ago
You are jumping to conclusions. Don't get me wrong, I am very greatful for what my government (USA) contributes to the world and does. I think it's just that I have very high expectations and am a principled person that believes in honesty with oneself and the world around us. I know that NK is bad, but I also know that there are worse places, worse places even right on our door step and even within our own house that really demand and should be getting far more attention than some hermit kingdom that is rather inconsequential on a practical level. I am "so quick" to doubt that NK has anything to do with it not based on some irrational assumption, but rather that the whole damn thing sounded and felt rather fishy from the get-go and there has just been more and more support and substantiated doubts that it was a NK originated attack.

woodman 12y ago

> Edit: ... First, what evidence? Second, the USG has demonstrated the fact that it cannot be trusted to tell the truth. That has been the funniest thing about the whole Snowden story, the cycle of lies and spin when the lie is exposed by an additional leak the following day. Third, Obama publicly threatened retaliation - so a hasty cyberattack by the USG isn't far fetched at all.

zenogais 12y ago

You do realize the US is doing or has done all of those inhumane actions attributed to NK? The proof is a simple Google search away. You might, instead, ask why you are so willing to immediately engage in such defensive argumentation in support of the US? Is it, perhaps, that you have been trained in a variety of ways to connote certain negative emotions with NK that you, however, do not connote with the US?

pdabbadabba 12y ago
I'm sorry, but this lacks all perspective. We have, on occassion, done some of the same kind of things as NK, but not typically to the same extent, with the same level of brutality and control, let alone all at the same time, today. When, for example, have we done this? > The government practices collective punishment, sending to forced labor camps not only the offender but also their parents, spouse, children, and even grandchildren. These camps are notorious for horrific living conditions and abuse, including induced starvation, little or no medical care, lack of proper housing and clothes, continuous mistreatment and torture by guards, and executions. Forced labor at the kwan-li-so often involves difficult physical labor such as mining, logging, and agricultural work, all done with rudimentary tools in often dangerous and harsh conditions. Death rates in these camps are reportedly extremely high. Or this? > All media and publications are state controlled, and unauthorized access to non-state radio or TV broadcasts is punished. North Koreans are punished if found with mobile media such as DVDs or computer ‘flash drives’ containing unauthorized TV programs, such as South Korean drama and entertainment shows. Or this? > North Korea criminalizes leaving the country without state permission. Or this? > people arrested in North Korea are routinely tortured by officials seeking confessions, bribes, and obedience. Common forms of torture include sleep deprivation, beatings with iron rods or sticks, kicking and slapping, and enforced sitting or standing for hours. Guards also sexually abuse female detainees. (Yes, I realize we have done some of these things to CIA detainees overseas, which is truly terrible. But we're talking here about all arrest in NK.) Or this? > Forced labor is essentially the norm in the country, and workers are systematically denied freedom of association and the right to organize and collectively bargain.
- ochoseis 12y ago
  The US used to do quite a bit of this but we've made great strides in the past 150yrs.
- munin 12y ago
  Well there was the cop that extorted an arrested woman into giving him nudes, seizing the houses of the parents of people arrested for minor drug crimes, using children as leverage in civil asset forfeiture, solitary confinement, tacit approval of prison rape as reformatory, prison labor and private prisons, and the murders of union organizers...
  - pdabbadabba 12y ago
    Yeah. All that is bad. The U.S. needs some work. We agree on that. But read that NK human rights report again... I'm not sure you'll see anything in there about, for example, the behavior of a single cop. What's going on in NK is on an entirely different scale.

mkal_tsr 12y ago

Faulty intel about nation-state actions as a precursor to intervention has been proven to be an unsuccessful long-term strategy. Examples are left as an exercise to the reader. Questioning assertions should be commended, for the truth doesn't fear investigation.

wahsd 12y ago

You are jumping to conclusions. Don't get me wrong, I am very greatful for what my government (USA) contributes to the world and does. I think it's just that I have very high expectations and am a principled person that believes in honesty with oneself and the world around us. I know that NK is bad, but I also know that there are worse places, worse places even right on our door step and even within our own house that really demand and should be getting far more attention than some hermit kingdom that is rather inconsequential on a practical level. I am "so quick" to doubt that NK has anything to do with it not based on some irrational assumption, but rather that the whole damn thing sounded and felt rather fishy from the get-go and there has just been more and more support and substantiated doubts that it was a NK originated attack.