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Black Mirror is awesome. My favorite episode is "15 Million Merits", which reminds me of the John Maynard Keynes discussion about digging holes in the desert an

by robl97 12y ago

Black Mirror is awesome. My favorite episode is "15 Million Merits", which reminds me of the John Maynard Keynes discussion about digging holes in the desert and putting jars filled with banknotes for people to dig up, or Paul Krugman's suggestion about makework preparing for an alien invasion (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/coalmines-and-aliens-again/ http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/coalmines-and-al...). In the future, is any work (even if not that productive, like riding a bike and accumulating points) better than no work and potential social costs?

vxNsr 12y ago
I thought the bike riding was generating electricity and the points were really just dollars.
- bkeroack 12y ago
  The deeper point being, I think, that money in a sense is no more "real" than points on a screen.
  - Zuggy 12y ago
    That's what I got out of the episode, too. And when you look into it there is quite a bit of truth to it. At least in the US, the vast majority of our currency only exists in electronic formats.
    - V-2 12y ago
      The works of Beethoven or greatest chess games of all times could only exist in electronic format as well, without affecting their value. The fact that the value of something is abstracted away from actual physical entities doesn't (by itself) make it in any way inferior. Quite the contrary - it's the ability to grasp the concept of virtual value, rather than only recognizing it in bananas etc. that makes us human. (Sorry about the English, that's a tad too abstract for my working command of the language :/ )
  - zenogais 12y ago
    Money is a social construct, and therefore not materially real. If all human beings disappeared tomorrow dollars/merits/etc. would cease to have real-world efficacy. I thought the deeper point was, perhaps, that everyone has their price. That nothing, not even the very things people think are "radical" or "revolutionary", escapes the logic of money. That everything can be commodified and turned to serve the very system they try to escape.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      > Money is a social construct, and therefore not materially real. If all human beings disappeared tomorrow dollars/merits/etc. would cease to have real-world efficacy. But so would couches. Without humans they're just ... things, without any implied use of being sat on.
      - Evolved 12y ago
        I think he means not necessarily that it's a social construct but that it is intrinsically valueless and serves no purpose without human existance whereas a couch could be used for at least some other purpose than sitting on.
  - zo1 12y ago
    Well, if by "real" you don't mean "constrained by the limitations of physical reality" then sure. But that also depends on what your definition of money is. Note, it might not be the same as others'.
zentropia 12y ago
I will say that in ancient times building pyramids was this kind of useless job just to keep everyone busy.
basch 12y ago
15 Million Merits brought this article to mind. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-One http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-...
conistonwater 12y ago
I think you missed Krugman's point entirely.
- robl97 12y ago
  "what about the theory of the second best? This theory — which is just basic micro — says that when some markets are distorted, for whatever reason, social costs and benefits across the economy don’t correspond to private costs, so that unprofitable, even seemingly wasteful activities can sometimes be beneficial. And an economy in which millions of willing workers can’t find work is surely one with massive distortions of some kind."
  - conistonwater 12y ago
    Yes, notice the part > And an economy in which millions of willing workers can’t find work is surely one with massive distortions of some kind. He is talking about very specific economic circumstances (defined by macroeconomic conditions, and which should happen only rarely), whereas you are talking about "any work in the future".

by robl97 12y ago

vxNsr 12y ago

I thought the bike riding was generating electricity and the points were really just dollars.

bkeroack 12y ago
The deeper point being, I think, that money in a sense is no more "real" than points on a screen.
- Zuggy 12y ago
  That's what I got out of the episode, too. And when you look into it there is quite a bit of truth to it. At least in the US, the vast majority of our currency only exists in electronic formats.
  - V-2 12y ago
    The works of Beethoven or greatest chess games of all times could only exist in electronic format as well, without affecting their value. The fact that the value of something is abstracted away from actual physical entities doesn't (by itself) make it in any way inferior. Quite the contrary - it's the ability to grasp the concept of virtual value, rather than only recognizing it in bananas etc. that makes us human. (Sorry about the English, that's a tad too abstract for my working command of the language :/ )
- zenogais 12y ago
  Money is a social construct, and therefore not materially real. If all human beings disappeared tomorrow dollars/merits/etc. would cease to have real-world efficacy. I thought the deeper point was, perhaps, that everyone has their price. That nothing, not even the very things people think are "radical" or "revolutionary", escapes the logic of money. That everything can be commodified and turned to serve the very system they try to escape.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    > Money is a social construct, and therefore not materially real. If all human beings disappeared tomorrow dollars/merits/etc. would cease to have real-world efficacy. But so would couches. Without humans they're just ... things, without any implied use of being sat on.
    - Evolved 12y ago
      I think he means not necessarily that it's a social construct but that it is intrinsically valueless and serves no purpose without human existance whereas a couch could be used for at least some other purpose than sitting on.
- zo1 12y ago
  Well, if by "real" you don't mean "constrained by the limitations of physical reality" then sure. But that also depends on what your definition of money is. Note, it might not be the same as others'.

zentropia 12y ago

I will say that in ancient times building pyramids was this kind of useless job just to keep everyone busy.

basch 12y ago

15 Million Merits brought this article to mind. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-One http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-...

conistonwater 12y ago

I think you missed Krugman's point entirely.

robl97 12y ago
"what about the theory of the second best? This theory — which is just basic micro — says that when some markets are distorted, for whatever reason, social costs and benefits across the economy don’t correspond to private costs, so that unprofitable, even seemingly wasteful activities can sometimes be beneficial. And an economy in which millions of willing workers can’t find work is surely one with massive distortions of some kind."
- conistonwater 12y ago
  Yes, notice the part > And an economy in which millions of willing workers can’t find work is surely one with massive distortions of some kind. He is talking about very specific economic circumstances (defined by macroeconomic conditions, and which should happen only rarely), whereas you are talking about "any work in the future".