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Replacing fossil fuels is not as simple as having high-efficiency solar panels (which these may not be when converting sunlight to electricity instead of heat).

by stouset 12y ago

Replacing fossil fuels is not as simple as having high-efficiency solar panels (which these may not be when converting sunlight to electricity instead of heat). Fossil fuels also have the advantage of having extremely high energy density. They can be transported cheaply and efficiently and they store well. Electricity suffers large losses when being transported long distances directly, and batteries are significantly heavier per kWh. Batteries also degrade over time, are expensive to replace, and often require substances that can be as (or more) destructive to mine than oil is to burn.

andy_ppp 12y ago
I think Tesla kind of prove that all of these problems can be overcome in cars. To address your point on storing intermittent energy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity It's about 80% efficient and would probably get more so. So you can solve the storage and intermittency problems of non fossil fuel storage pretty simply.
- hueving 12y ago
  Tesla has not proved that at all. You are completely ignoring the fact that they have no cheap solution to the batteries going bad. That's why there is no pricing available on battery replacements and why they have to have the depreciation matching program with gas cars.
- afarrell 12y ago
  Pumped storage is cool for daily cycles, but the real source of electricity storage is going to be bigass batteries that can respond to demand as quickly as a natural gas turbine: http://www.ambri.com/technology/ http://www.ambri.com/technology/
- stouset 12y ago
  Pumped hydro has nowhere near the capacity necessary to consider it a complete solution to long-term energy storage[1]. Tesla has shown that batteries can be viable in some cases (e.g., passenger vehicles), but that is but a tiny fraction of the cases where the versatility, mobility, and energy density of fossil fuels are used. Virtually all other long-haul transport (passenger flight and cargo hauling for example) uses them exclusively for starters. Nothing about transitioning away from fossil fuels is "simple", and it's likely to involve a patchwork of partial solutions[2]. [1]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-stor... [2]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/02/the-alternative-energy-matrix/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/02/the-alternative-...
- baddox 12y ago
  Hardly all the problems are solved. The holiday road trip I just took, from Missouri to Virginia and back, would be effectively impossible on the current Supercharger network, and would take much longer on the 2015 planned Supercharger network. When there's a dense network of battery hot swap stations, then perhaps.

by stouset 12y ago

andy_ppp 12y ago

I think Tesla kind of prove that all of these problems can be overcome in cars. To address your point on storing intermittent energy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity It's about 80% efficient and would probably get more so. So you can solve the storage and intermittency problems of non fossil fuel storage pretty simply.

hueving 12y ago
Tesla has not proved that at all. You are completely ignoring the fact that they have no cheap solution to the batteries going bad. That's why there is no pricing available on battery replacements and why they have to have the depreciation matching program with gas cars.
afarrell 12y ago
Pumped storage is cool for daily cycles, but the real source of electricity storage is going to be bigass batteries that can respond to demand as quickly as a natural gas turbine: http://www.ambri.com/technology/ http://www.ambri.com/technology/
stouset 12y ago
Pumped hydro has nowhere near the capacity necessary to consider it a complete solution to long-term energy storage[1]. Tesla has shown that batteries can be viable in some cases (e.g., passenger vehicles), but that is but a tiny fraction of the cases where the versatility, mobility, and energy density of fossil fuels are used. Virtually all other long-haul transport (passenger flight and cargo hauling for example) uses them exclusively for starters. Nothing about transitioning away from fossil fuels is "simple", and it's likely to involve a patchwork of partial solutions[2]. [1]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-stor... [2]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/02/the-alternative-energy-matrix/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/02/the-alternative-...
baddox 12y ago
Hardly all the problems are solved. The holiday road trip I just took, from Missouri to Virginia and back, would be effectively impossible on the current Supercharger network, and would take much longer on the 2015 planned Supercharger network. When there's a dense network of battery hot swap stations, then perhaps.