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It's a shame to see the conversation here bypassing the real issue, which isn't taste, technological wow-factor, production efficiency, environmentalism, or ent

It's a shame to see the conversation here bypassing the real issue, which isn't taste, technological wow-factor, production efficiency, environmentalism, or entrepreneur chic. The real issue is animal welfare. Remember, every time you eat meat, you are actually eating the body of a former living creature, equipped with eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, and a complex nervous system capable of integrating its sensations, of feeling pain, fear, and depression. Rememeber, you have no way of guaranteeing (and in fact can actually be almost always certain) that this animal's life wasn't short, miserable, and didn't culminate with an utterly barbaric episode of fear and torture - and then rapid, mechanical dissembly into anonymous pieces, shipped off to your local supermarket or burger shop, its brutal, dirty provenance hidden by a facde of bright and happy advertising. Remember, every time you eat eggs, eat dairy or buy leather, you are participating and endorsing the same thing: industrial scale mistreatment and torture of animals. Watch the video linked in the article (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0) and remember, if you live in the US, the USDA is a captured regulator, completely toothless to prevent animal torture in slaughterhouses - in fact it simply assists in declaring whatever practices the food industry wants to use as humane. Remember, the majority of states are busy passing laws to make it illegal to film undercover videos in CAFOs and abattoirs, so no one can see what is actually going on (because if people did really see it and really understood they would be disgusted to their core.) If you live in any other country in the world, the situation is either much worse, or a little, but not much, better. If you believe that humans should live compassionately and avoid inflicting unnecessary suffering on other feeling, emotional creatures, then go vegan. Not vegetarian, vegan. Don't wait - do it today, not tomorrow. It's the only way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what they see.

Perceptes 12y ago
This is one of the best comments I've read on HN. While I strongly agree with you, it's important to remember that even in what seem like brain-dead obvious cases, morality won't always be enough of a motivator to change people. What makes research and development like this important and exciting to me is that I believe it's the only way the world will ever really change on this issue. Convincing the entirety of the world that animal welfare is reason enough to go vegan is simply not going to happen. In the end, not eating meat needs to be 1) equal to or more satisfying than eating meat 2) equal or cheaper in cost 3) equal or more convenient.
- jasonisalive 12y ago
  Thanks for the positive feedback! For your other points, it's useful to draw a comparison with slavery here I think. 1) Our stable, successfully post-slavery world (which I would argue ours largely is) isn't a world where everyone plays slavery-reenactment videogames and has slave dolls while secretly wishing they could still own the real thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly concur that slavery was a reprehensible practice, where people are happy that slavery is no longer mainstream, and where the wish to hold slaves is a tawdry, extremely minority desire held only in absolute secret. Similarly, a stable, successful post-animal cruelty world isn't a world where everyone eats mock meat and secretly wishes they could still eat the real thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly realise that eating meat was actually always a disgusting, barbaric practice, that lead to countless inhumanity and injustice, and where people are glad that humanity has outgrown it. 2) The abolition of slavery was achieved because a vocal minority of people who cared pushed for it - not because they took the easy, meek route and tried to design slave-replacing mimics - "So servile you won't even notice the difference! Just as beatable but he'll never try and run away!" Similarly, for progress on meat to occur, people need to be supported, encouraged, and pushed to realise when they are behaving badly. That includes pointing out that in encouraging convincing substitutes for barbaric products, you implicitly condone the normative value of consuming that product in the first place, and you don't push people to feel disgust at the idea of even eating animal body parts. 3) Fake meat burgers are to meat-eating what methadone is to heroin. An uncomfortable, temporary fix, undoubtedly necessary, but not admirable or desirable in the long or even mid-term. People are capable of trying to achieve something because it is right, not because it is easy or more convenient. Pushing people to realise that their behaviour is wrong and needs to change is always going to be harder than saying "hey, just eat this burger, it'll satisfy your need to eat cooked dead bodies, but avoid all those nasty side-effects" - but it's much, much more effective and important. And it does work, even if slowly. I turned vegan because I came across people speaking passionately for its necessity, and I hope everyone who believes in it as much I do has the courage to push equally as hard, even though it is always tempting to make concessions. Edit: I'd also just like to say that living vegan is honestly not that hard. It's actually very fulfilling because you know that even as you're doing the right thing, you're also making it easier for others to do the right thing too, and as more people turn vegan, it becomes easier and easier for everyone. A nice positive feedback cycle.
Perdition 12y ago
>It's the only way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what they see. Other people have different value systems to you.
- jasonisalive 12y ago
  Hmm, yet people overwhelmingly agree that slavery is nothing to be proud of, and somehow I'm sure you'd never play the "difference of opinion" card in defence of slavery... Anyway, I'm proud of myself because I know that when I go to buy food, clothes, and much more, I purposefully choose products which do not require that, behind closed doors, untold numbers of feeling, sensate creatures are, among other things, purposefully genetically manipulated to live lives of sickness and deformity, housed in miserable concentration camp-like conditions, and slaughtered barbarically. I'm proud to stand up for the rights of creatures with mental capacities the equivalent of young human babies - and I'm especially proud that I stand up for creatures unable to speak up for themselves, and hence so easy to discount and ignore their suffering and mistreatment. What are you proud of when you buy and eat meat?
  - Perdition 12y ago
    You can be proud of whatever you like. The problem was you declaring that your ethical system was universal. Most of our ancestors had no problems personally killing and consuming animals. Your abhorrence of the practice is not universal.
    - jasonisalive 12y ago
      When you read about the statements made by abolitionists ("no one can feel proud of himself when he exploits the flesh of his fellow man") do you think "how arrogant, they should have acknowledged that their ethical system wasn't universal"? No? Didn't think so. An argument that a conviction is not universal is a very poor one indeed. Tastes change. Still waiting to hear what makes you feel proud when you eat meat.

Perceptes 12y ago

This is one of the best comments I've read on HN. While I strongly agree with you, it's important to remember that even in what seem like brain-dead obvious cases, morality won't always be enough of a motivator to change people. What makes research and development like this important and exciting to me is that I believe it's the only way the world will ever really change on this issue. Convincing the entirety of the world that animal welfare is reason enough to go vegan is simply not going to happen. In the end, not eating meat needs to be 1) equal to or more satisfying than eating meat 2) equal or cheaper in cost 3) equal or more convenient.

jasonisalive 12y ago
Thanks for the positive feedback! For your other points, it's useful to draw a comparison with slavery here I think. 1) Our stable, successfully post-slavery world (which I would argue ours largely is) isn't a world where everyone plays slavery-reenactment videogames and has slave dolls while secretly wishing they could still own the real thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly concur that slavery was a reprehensible practice, where people are happy that slavery is no longer mainstream, and where the wish to hold slaves is a tawdry, extremely minority desire held only in absolute secret. Similarly, a stable, successful post-animal cruelty world isn't a world where everyone eats mock meat and secretly wishes they could still eat the real thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly realise that eating meat was actually always a disgusting, barbaric practice, that lead to countless inhumanity and injustice, and where people are glad that humanity has outgrown it. 2) The abolition of slavery was achieved because a vocal minority of people who cared pushed for it - not because they took the easy, meek route and tried to design slave-replacing mimics - "So servile you won't even notice the difference! Just as beatable but he'll never try and run away!" Similarly, for progress on meat to occur, people need to be supported, encouraged, and pushed to realise when they are behaving badly. That includes pointing out that in encouraging convincing substitutes for barbaric products, you implicitly condone the normative value of consuming that product in the first place, and you don't push people to feel disgust at the idea of even eating animal body parts. 3) Fake meat burgers are to meat-eating what methadone is to heroin. An uncomfortable, temporary fix, undoubtedly necessary, but not admirable or desirable in the long or even mid-term. People are capable of trying to achieve something because it is right, not because it is easy or more convenient. Pushing people to realise that their behaviour is wrong and needs to change is always going to be harder than saying "hey, just eat this burger, it'll satisfy your need to eat cooked dead bodies, but avoid all those nasty side-effects" - but it's much, much more effective and important. And it does work, even if slowly. I turned vegan because I came across people speaking passionately for its necessity, and I hope everyone who believes in it as much I do has the courage to push equally as hard, even though it is always tempting to make concessions. Edit: I'd also just like to say that living vegan is honestly not that hard. It's actually very fulfilling because you know that even as you're doing the right thing, you're also making it easier for others to do the right thing too, and as more people turn vegan, it becomes easier and easier for everyone. A nice positive feedback cycle.

Perdition 12y ago

>It's the only way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what they see. Other people have different value systems to you.

jasonisalive 12y ago
Hmm, yet people overwhelmingly agree that slavery is nothing to be proud of, and somehow I'm sure you'd never play the "difference of opinion" card in defence of slavery... Anyway, I'm proud of myself because I know that when I go to buy food, clothes, and much more, I purposefully choose products which do not require that, behind closed doors, untold numbers of feeling, sensate creatures are, among other things, purposefully genetically manipulated to live lives of sickness and deformity, housed in miserable concentration camp-like conditions, and slaughtered barbarically. I'm proud to stand up for the rights of creatures with mental capacities the equivalent of young human babies - and I'm especially proud that I stand up for creatures unable to speak up for themselves, and hence so easy to discount and ignore their suffering and mistreatment. What are you proud of when you buy and eat meat?
- Perdition 12y ago
  You can be proud of whatever you like. The problem was you declaring that your ethical system was universal. Most of our ancestors had no problems personally killing and consuming animals. Your abhorrence of the practice is not universal.
  - jasonisalive 12y ago
    When you read about the statements made by abolitionists ("no one can feel proud of himself when he exploits the flesh of his fellow man") do you think "how arrogant, they should have acknowledged that their ethical system wasn't universal"? No? Didn't think so. An argument that a conviction is not universal is a very poor one indeed. Tastes change. Still waiting to hear what makes you feel proud when you eat meat.