5 ms·

Completely wrong analogy. You can kill other people with the gun you own, it is difficult to kill other people in your backyard pool. PS: Also, the numbers pr

Completely wrong analogy. You can kill other people with the gun you own, it is difficult to kill other people in your backyard pool. PS: Also, the numbers presented in the CDC link were for 4 years. The # of deaths by gun-violence (homicide + suicide by gun) in USA per year exceeds # of pool deaths per year by a factor of at least 20.

gnarbarian 12y ago
I'm talking about accidental deaths. I have no issue with legal homicide (in self defense) or suicide. RFID guns won't stop either of those from happening.
- Ygg2 12y ago
  True. But banning guns would reduce gun related suicides.
  - gnarbarian 12y ago
    Why does the mechanism of the suicide matter?
    - lmm 12y ago
      Many people survive trying to kill themselves through e.g. overdoses, and go on to live fulfilling lives.
      - gnarbarian 12y ago
        You seem to be assuming that firearm related suicides are not carried out using their own guns. How does a legally owned RFID activated gun prevent someone from killing themselves with it?
        Ygg2 12y ago
        Unrelated to my original argument. Gun ban as in gun ban (you get no gun, not you get a tagged gun) would probably reduce suicide rates. At best you should stay the fuck away from guns.
        gnarbarian 12y ago
        The article was about RFID activated guns. I'm sorry I'm responding to a lot of people at once I didn't notice that you wanted to ban all of them. That's not going to happen any time soon. It would be pretty difficult to carry out here in Alaska. And as for staying the fuck away from guns? that's pretty difficult in my house: http://i.imgur.com/0rkkmuP.jpg http://i.imgur.com/0rkkmuP.jpg
        Ygg2 12y ago
        I know you are a gun fan from all the pro gun posts. Convincing you isn't really a goal of mine. I was speaking to general auditorium. Also I'm quite aware of gun culture in US. Chance of changing that are nonexistent. I can however appeal to people that are intending to buy a gun.
        benjohnson 12y ago
        From what I've read, he's a fan of personal liberty and his argument is that personal gun ownership is part of that.
    - Ygg2 12y ago
      Because suicidal decisions are made during moments of intense stress? Suiciders want it to be quick and painless? If you look at how Britain's transition from coal gas to natural gas reduced suicide rates it is not hard to imagine same would happen if guns were banned. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?...
      - gnarbarian 12y ago
        It's my opinion that having guns is worth the collateral damage of people shooting themselves who would have regretted it later.
        atlantic 12y ago
        Honest question: what exactly is the benefit of of allowing civilian gun ownership, which you imply balances out the "collateral damage" of accidental death? From a European point of view, it looks absurd. Most criminals here do not use guns because very few are in circulation. Minor conflicts do not escalate into murder, because it's hard to kill without a weapon. And guns are not available for would-be suicides and accidental shootings. On the other hand, if you're concerned about self-defence, you're free to learn a martial art. No restrictions on that.
        gnarbarian 12y ago
        The concept of self determination and autonomy is strong to most Americans. We don't like having to rely on someone else for our own safety. The police will never get there in time to save you. Judo isn't going to save the elderly from a mugging or a small woman from a gang rape. A gun can though. What choice do you have when a criminal breaks into your home? Do you cry out to them "look out I'm calling the police" and then return to cower in your hiding place hoping they don't cause you or your loved ones physical harm? We like being able to hunt and provide food for our families. It's a very primal thing that most people have lost touch with. To be out in the wilderness stalking an animal as a predator. It's something we have done for Eons. We've done it for longer than we've been people for christ's sake. I can provide myself top quality meat doing this at a fraction of the cost. Plus I know where it came from and that it lived a better life than some cow in a slaughter farm. The entire concept of the U.S. was built on people who were sick of their government fucking them over. So they kicked the government out. We wouldn't have been able to do that without guns, so we enshrined it in our constitution should it ever happen again. It's literally the second amendment because it's nearly as important as freedom of speech, and not the watered down freedom of speech they have over there in europe. We want it all, hate speech and the lot of it. Not because we like hate speech, but because we believe good ideas stand on their own merit and bad ideas should be aired out in public and debated and dismissed so as not to fester clandestinely. Many lives have been sacrificed on the altar of gun rights just as many feelings have been hurt and lives lost because of our freedom of speech. The sacrifice is well worth it and will continue. in short "freedom is not free" also “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Ben Franklin
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      A lot of suicides (not all, but many) not only require the urge to kill yourself, but also the opportunity. The urge is a passing thing, it's sometimes stronger, just to get weaker afterwards. So if you have no gun (or other means) ready, there's a high chance that you will not commit suicide.
      - gnarbarian 12y ago
        So how does an RFID activated gun prevent the rightful owner from shooting themselves with it? How many firearm suicides are carried out using stolen guns?
    - maaku 12y ago
      There's obvious survivor bias, but those who attempted suicide and failed often go on to live fulfilling lives. Making it harder to carry out a self-homicide, or making it much more painful/scary than a gunshot to the head means fewer people will make a decision they would have, if they were able, regretted.
    - mpweiher 12y ago
      My dad would still be alive had he not had a gun.
      - gnarbarian 12y ago
        and my 3 yo cousin would still be alive if it weren't for a pool in her backyard. I don't blame the pool, I don't want pools banned.
- virtuabhi 12y ago
  First of all, I (and majority of sane people) will consider self defense ("Trayvon Martin case, etc.") and suicides in the death count. That being said, if we exclude suicides and self defense then we still have a factor of ~12. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - maaku 12y ago
      Applying overwhelming physical force is much less likely to have resulted in death than a gunshot wound.

gnarbarian 12y ago

I'm talking about accidental deaths. I have no issue with legal homicide (in self defense) or suicide. RFID guns won't stop either of those from happening.

Ygg2 12y ago
True. But banning guns would reduce gun related suicides.
- gnarbarian 12y ago
  Why does the mechanism of the suicide matter?
  - lmm 12y ago
    Many people survive trying to kill themselves through e.g. overdoses, and go on to live fulfilling lives.
    - gnarbarian 12y ago
      You seem to be assuming that firearm related suicides are not carried out using their own guns. How does a legally owned RFID activated gun prevent someone from killing themselves with it?
      - Ygg2 12y ago
        Unrelated to my original argument. Gun ban as in gun ban (you get no gun, not you get a tagged gun) would probably reduce suicide rates. At best you should stay the fuck away from guns.
        gnarbarian 12y ago
        The article was about RFID activated guns. I'm sorry I'm responding to a lot of people at once I didn't notice that you wanted to ban all of them. That's not going to happen any time soon. It would be pretty difficult to carry out here in Alaska. And as for staying the fuck away from guns? that's pretty difficult in my house: http://i.imgur.com/0rkkmuP.jpg http://i.imgur.com/0rkkmuP.jpg
        Ygg2 12y ago
        I know you are a gun fan from all the pro gun posts. Convincing you isn't really a goal of mine. I was speaking to general auditorium. Also I'm quite aware of gun culture in US. Chance of changing that are nonexistent. I can however appeal to people that are intending to buy a gun.
        benjohnson 12y ago
        From what I've read, he's a fan of personal liberty and his argument is that personal gun ownership is part of that.
  - Ygg2 12y ago
    Because suicidal decisions are made during moments of intense stress? Suiciders want it to be quick and painless? If you look at how Britain's transition from coal gas to natural gas reduced suicide rates it is not hard to imagine same would happen if guns were banned. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06suicide-t.html?...
    - gnarbarian 12y ago
      It's my opinion that having guns is worth the collateral damage of people shooting themselves who would have regretted it later.
      - atlantic 12y ago
        Honest question: what exactly is the benefit of of allowing civilian gun ownership, which you imply balances out the "collateral damage" of accidental death? From a European point of view, it looks absurd. Most criminals here do not use guns because very few are in circulation. Minor conflicts do not escalate into murder, because it's hard to kill without a weapon. And guns are not available for would-be suicides and accidental shootings. On the other hand, if you're concerned about self-defence, you're free to learn a martial art. No restrictions on that.
        gnarbarian 12y ago
        The concept of self determination and autonomy is strong to most Americans. We don't like having to rely on someone else for our own safety. The police will never get there in time to save you. Judo isn't going to save the elderly from a mugging or a small woman from a gang rape. A gun can though. What choice do you have when a criminal breaks into your home? Do you cry out to them "look out I'm calling the police" and then return to cower in your hiding place hoping they don't cause you or your loved ones physical harm? We like being able to hunt and provide food for our families. It's a very primal thing that most people have lost touch with. To be out in the wilderness stalking an animal as a predator. It's something we have done for Eons. We've done it for longer than we've been people for christ's sake. I can provide myself top quality meat doing this at a fraction of the cost. Plus I know where it came from and that it lived a better life than some cow in a slaughter farm. The entire concept of the U.S. was built on people who were sick of their government fucking them over. So they kicked the government out. We wouldn't have been able to do that without guns, so we enshrined it in our constitution should it ever happen again. It's literally the second amendment because it's nearly as important as freedom of speech, and not the watered down freedom of speech they have over there in europe. We want it all, hate speech and the lot of it. Not because we like hate speech, but because we believe good ideas stand on their own merit and bad ideas should be aired out in public and debated and dismissed so as not to fester clandestinely. Many lives have been sacrificed on the altar of gun rights just as many feelings have been hurt and lives lost because of our freedom of speech. The sacrifice is well worth it and will continue. in short "freedom is not free" also “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Ben Franklin
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    A lot of suicides (not all, but many) not only require the urge to kill yourself, but also the opportunity. The urge is a passing thing, it's sometimes stronger, just to get weaker afterwards. So if you have no gun (or other means) ready, there's a high chance that you will not commit suicide.
    - gnarbarian 12y ago
      So how does an RFID activated gun prevent the rightful owner from shooting themselves with it? How many firearm suicides are carried out using stolen guns?
  - maaku 12y ago
    There's obvious survivor bias, but those who attempted suicide and failed often go on to live fulfilling lives. Making it harder to carry out a self-homicide, or making it much more painful/scary than a gunshot to the head means fewer people will make a decision they would have, if they were able, regretted.
  - mpweiher 12y ago
    My dad would still be alive had he not had a gun.
    - gnarbarian 12y ago
      and my 3 yo cousin would still be alive if it weren't for a pool in her backyard. I don't blame the pool, I don't want pools banned.
virtuabhi 12y ago
First of all, I (and majority of sane people) will consider self defense ("Trayvon Martin case, etc.") and suicides in the death count. That being said, if we exclude suicides and self defense then we still have a factor of ~12. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - maaku 12y ago
    Applying overwhelming physical force is much less likely to have resulted in death than a gunshot wound.