4 ms·

I've said this before on HN, but it's worth repeating. I want a Warcraft-style MMO that immerses me in a foreign language. Instead of "Go kill 8 dragons" the qu

I've said this before on HN, but it's worth repeating. I want a Warcraft-style MMO that immerses me in a foreign language. Instead of "Go kill 8 dragons" the questgiver tells me to "Mata a 8 dragones verdes" and it's up to me to figure out he said green dragons, not just any dragons. I would play the hell out of that game and I'd be fluent in like 8 languages after a few months. Please, somebody with access to like $10 million of funny money, build this.

chinedufn 12y ago
It might be interesting to try changing the language setting on your favorite existing game
- Zuph 12y ago
  That works once you've reached a certain level of understanding. Most AAA games have really good translations. The trick is "comprehensible input." If you can provide a learner with input that is just a little beyond their level of comprehension, they will learn much, much faster. Dump someone into an ocean of complex grammar and vocabulary? It's a nightmare. I can see definite value in a game that starts very basic, and increases complexity as you acquire a language. A game would also be good for reinforcing word-image links without translation. Sites like DuoLingo do a very good job at training people to be translators, but a poorer job of training people to become adequate speakers, writers, and listeners.
alexbilbie 12y ago
I'm not familiar with Warcraft or other MMOs and therefore I don't know if there is a penalty for enacting an instruction incorrectly...but could you not just play WOW or another game in the foreign language? i.e. go to settings and change the language or purchase a non-English version of the game? Seems to me like you don't need to invent something new.
- fivedogit 12y ago
  Unfortunately, the game would need to be new, at least in terms of the story/quest content. Think about how Rosetta Stone works. The clue is "gato" and you click the picture of a dog from 4 choices. The program gives you a big fat red X, and from now on you, you know that "gato" does not mean "dog". It's a very deliberate, clever learning process that really works. The problem with Rosetta Stone is that it's not fun, there's no end motivation and people always quit. That's where the addictive motivational aspects of an MMO would come in. So each of the quests would need to be tuned to this kind of immersive trial/error learning (which is how we acquire new languages). Right now, if my memory serves me, most Warcraft quests don't even require you to read the text or listen to anyone speaking. You just follow a nav arrow or go towards a dot on the mini map. Simply switching languages would not get the job done.
  - jkmcf 12y ago
    On my never-gonna-get-to-it todo list, I have a myst like game where you are stranded on a deserted island with a local guide to help you learn the language while interacting w/ people and solving puzzles.
GuiA 12y ago
Similarly, movie subtitles specifically for language learning could be devised. For example, you'd have 3 lines: the original line, a translated line, and a "learning" line in between that would have the verbs in their non conjugated form, etc. Example with your sentence: Mata 8 dragónes verdes Matar 8 dragón verde Kill 8 dragons green This probably isn't the ideal configuration, but I think the general idea has a lot of potential and would greatly help with language learning. It would also really shine for languages with different alphabets - eg for japanese the top line could use kanji/hiragana/katakana, and the middle line romaji. I thought of this recently while watching a Japanese movie- my Japanese is very rudimentary, and having romaji+English subtitles while listening to the movie in Japanese would make me learn super fast.
- sho_hn 12y ago
  From what I recall, subtitles were indeed tremendously helpful when I was learning English - English subtitles only, though. Being able to read along took the stress out of having to cope with enunciation and understanding meaning at the same time. Translated subtitles on the other hand were just a distraction. My brain would end up reading them and start ignoring the English, rather than make any connections. So I don't think trying to have two languages active concurrently and constantly translating forth and back works well. However, having audio and text in the same language active concurrently helps with instilling an audio representation of the language in your head, which is crucial in e.g. improving reading speed, because you really need to be able to actually speak in your head instead of working with abstract symbols.
  - zzzcpan 12y ago
    Yes, you need an effort-reward loop to learn something.
- joshstrange 12y ago
  I knew a German exchange student in HS that said he learned a lot of his English from watching US TV and having the German subs until he could understand spoken English well enough then he switched to the English subs to get better at reading it as well. I've l've always considered trying to grab some TV shows with foreign audio tracks and English subs and giving it a go. The problem is a lot of the TV I "watch" is in the background while doing something else.
cpursley 12y ago
I've thought about this a lot as well. A lot of Russians that I've meet learned English (at least improved it) did so via video games in English. Imagine a game where you "purchase" tickets, get on a plane, fly to France and have to navigate around Paris while learning bits of French along the way (reading signs, having interactions like asking for directions, ordering coffee, etc). You would have objectives to complete and little mini-levels like typing exercises. There could be speaking tests via siri/gnow-like AI or even a "pro" version where you interact with real native speakers (pay as you play). The closest I can think of is Influent on Steam, but it's pretty limited at the moment (you can only navigate around an apartment). It's a pretty good start.
melling 12y ago
How about the classic games of Hangman, Word Search, Concentration, Match, 4 Pictures 1 Word, and Word Scramble? I put all these in one iOS app. Spanish: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... French, German, Italian, Russian, Chinese: http://appstore.com/h4labs http://appstore.com/h4labs I agree that some sort of interactive game would be great but it would be so much harder. I was thinking either comics or some sort of illustrated story might work too. First, I'm going to spruce up my current app then try to design some "story" that covers the basic nouns and verbs.
Giulalbez 12y ago
I learnt a lot of English playing Runescape. You pass the mouse over any object and it shows the object name, all kinds of animals, trees, tools, furniture,food, etc.. in the game. It is possible to switch languages any time. The server in English is more crowded, but there is always a lot of people in the other servers. Last time I checked they had French, German, English and Portuguese. You can also see the dialogues of other players and talk to people. The bad side is that it can be addictive. If I had 10 million funny money i would do a "Myth The Fallen Lords" MMO, it's a great old game, and still get some support from volunteer developers, even being still a proprietary game (the guys have been trying to get it open for the community)
zzzcpan 12y ago
I don't think it could work. You need a substantial reward after each translation effort to keep on translating instead of guessing. At the same time giving such rewards takes some away from the game itself, and the game becomes boring. Learning through subtitles for tv shows proved to be the best way for me. Each time you translate a dialog you get a reward in a form of a story. And story is what you are watching tv shows for in the first place.

chinedufn 12y ago

It might be interesting to try changing the language setting on your favorite existing game

Zuph 12y ago
That works once you've reached a certain level of understanding. Most AAA games have really good translations. The trick is "comprehensible input." If you can provide a learner with input that is just a little beyond their level of comprehension, they will learn much, much faster. Dump someone into an ocean of complex grammar and vocabulary? It's a nightmare. I can see definite value in a game that starts very basic, and increases complexity as you acquire a language. A game would also be good for reinforcing word-image links without translation. Sites like DuoLingo do a very good job at training people to be translators, but a poorer job of training people to become adequate speakers, writers, and listeners.

alexbilbie 12y ago

I'm not familiar with Warcraft or other MMOs and therefore I don't know if there is a penalty for enacting an instruction incorrectly...but could you not just play WOW or another game in the foreign language? i.e. go to settings and change the language or purchase a non-English version of the game? Seems to me like you don't need to invent something new.

fivedogit 12y ago
Unfortunately, the game would need to be new, at least in terms of the story/quest content. Think about how Rosetta Stone works. The clue is "gato" and you click the picture of a dog from 4 choices. The program gives you a big fat red X, and from now on you, you know that "gato" does not mean "dog". It's a very deliberate, clever learning process that really works. The problem with Rosetta Stone is that it's not fun, there's no end motivation and people always quit. That's where the addictive motivational aspects of an MMO would come in. So each of the quests would need to be tuned to this kind of immersive trial/error learning (which is how we acquire new languages). Right now, if my memory serves me, most Warcraft quests don't even require you to read the text or listen to anyone speaking. You just follow a nav arrow or go towards a dot on the mini map. Simply switching languages would not get the job done.
- jkmcf 12y ago
  On my never-gonna-get-to-it todo list, I have a myst like game where you are stranded on a deserted island with a local guide to help you learn the language while interacting w/ people and solving puzzles.

GuiA 12y ago

Similarly, movie subtitles specifically for language learning could be devised. For example, you'd have 3 lines: the original line, a translated line, and a "learning" line in between that would have the verbs in their non conjugated form, etc. Example with your sentence: Mata 8 dragónes verdes Matar 8 dragón verde Kill 8 dragons green This probably isn't the ideal configuration, but I think the general idea has a lot of potential and would greatly help with language learning. It would also really shine for languages with different alphabets - eg for japanese the top line could use kanji/hiragana/katakana, and the middle line romaji. I thought of this recently while watching a Japanese movie- my Japanese is very rudimentary, and having romaji+English subtitles while listening to the movie in Japanese would make me learn super fast.

sho_hn 12y ago
From what I recall, subtitles were indeed tremendously helpful when I was learning English - English subtitles only, though. Being able to read along took the stress out of having to cope with enunciation and understanding meaning at the same time. Translated subtitles on the other hand were just a distraction. My brain would end up reading them and start ignoring the English, rather than make any connections. So I don't think trying to have two languages active concurrently and constantly translating forth and back works well. However, having audio and text in the same language active concurrently helps with instilling an audio representation of the language in your head, which is crucial in e.g. improving reading speed, because you really need to be able to actually speak in your head instead of working with abstract symbols.
- zzzcpan 12y ago
  Yes, you need an effort-reward loop to learn something.
joshstrange 12y ago
I knew a German exchange student in HS that said he learned a lot of his English from watching US TV and having the German subs until he could understand spoken English well enough then he switched to the English subs to get better at reading it as well. I've l've always considered trying to grab some TV shows with foreign audio tracks and English subs and giving it a go. The problem is a lot of the TV I "watch" is in the background while doing something else.

cpursley 12y ago

I've thought about this a lot as well. A lot of Russians that I've meet learned English (at least improved it) did so via video games in English. Imagine a game where you "purchase" tickets, get on a plane, fly to France and have to navigate around Paris while learning bits of French along the way (reading signs, having interactions like asking for directions, ordering coffee, etc). You would have objectives to complete and little mini-levels like typing exercises. There could be speaking tests via siri/gnow-like AI or even a "pro" version where you interact with real native speakers (pay as you play). The closest I can think of is Influent on Steam, but it's pretty limited at the moment (you can only navigate around an apartment). It's a pretty good start.

melling 12y ago

How about the classic games of Hangman, Word Search, Concentration, Match, 4 Pictures 1 Word, and Word Scramble? I put all these in one iOS app. Spanish: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/h4-spanish-lite/id388918463?... French, German, Italian, Russian, Chinese: http://appstore.com/h4labs http://appstore.com/h4labs I agree that some sort of interactive game would be great but it would be so much harder. I was thinking either comics or some sort of illustrated story might work too. First, I'm going to spruce up my current app then try to design some "story" that covers the basic nouns and verbs.

Giulalbez 12y ago

I learnt a lot of English playing Runescape. You pass the mouse over any object and it shows the object name, all kinds of animals, trees, tools, furniture,food, etc.. in the game. It is possible to switch languages any time. The server in English is more crowded, but there is always a lot of people in the other servers. Last time I checked they had French, German, English and Portuguese. You can also see the dialogues of other players and talk to people. The bad side is that it can be addictive. If I had 10 million funny money i would do a "Myth The Fallen Lords" MMO, it's a great old game, and still get some support from volunteer developers, even being still a proprietary game (the guys have been trying to get it open for the community)

zzzcpan 12y ago

I don't think it could work. You need a substantial reward after each translation effort to keep on translating instead of guessing. At the same time giving such rewards takes some away from the game itself, and the game becomes boring. Learning through subtitles for tv shows proved to be the best way for me. Each time you translate a dialog you get a reward in a form of a story. And story is what you are watching tv shows for in the first place.