4 ms·

I am currently looking at jobs in NYC. With 2 years of experience I am fielding offers between 60k-80k in a cheap state to live in. Two comments above you make

I am currently looking at jobs in NYC. With 2 years of experience I am fielding offers between 60k-80k in a cheap state to live in. Two comments above you make great points: (1) Developers should be making more than what they are and (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? That being said my point is if I had the 5+ years of experience you probably are looking for and was moving to NYC I would expect to be making 150k+. Which if that is what you are offering, great. But if it's not then you can find the talent you are looking for, you just can't afford it.

morgante 12y ago
> (1) Developers should be making more than what they are As a developer, I'd love to agree with this. In fact, I do. But in our experience this isn't directly related to the talent shortage (again, we have never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate). > (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up to $150k+.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  You've never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate you've attracted to apply in the first place. What about those you haven't?
  - morgante 12y ago
    You're right that our biggest challenge is in getting people to apply in the first place. What do you think is the highest value of deploying monetary and other resources to make that happen, given that publicly listing salaries is a non-starter?
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      If you want the benefit of offering significantly above market salaries, at some point you've got to let it be known that you're doing that. Secretly paying people a lot of money won't attract new talent.
    - zevets 12y ago
      Does your employer use the lots of startupland hiring phrases, like "we're looking for passionate rockstars who believe in our mission to change the world through payroll software"? A lot of the phrases in vogue right now seem to indicate companies that want employees that work 80 hour weeks and pay entry level salaries. Have you tried "competitive compensation" or some other non-numerical indicator that you guys pay well or phrases that indicate you guys have a professional vs. passionate culture?
      - morgante 12y ago
        I think our job listings are quite fair and free of "startup" phrases. We emphasize the actual problems you'll be working on and try to communicate that we pay professional salaries for professionals. Then again, I wrote them. So you can see for yourself: http://www.cafe.com/careers http://www.cafe.com/careers
        greenyoda 12y ago
        "I think our job listings are quite fair and free of 'startup' phrases." Just looked at your "Lead Engineer" listing. It says: "We offer a great startup work environment with free beer, snacks, and friendly teammates." That sounds more like a typical startup that expects people to work there for the fun experience than a workplace that wants to attract highly-paid professionals. And the offer of free beer makes it sound like a frat party. Maybe that's a turn-off to women who don't want to work in a place full of drunken guys. Maybe it's a turn-off to guys who want to have a life outside of work. Skip the free beer and make sure your employees have enough free time after work to get a beer outside if they want to.
- kmonsen 12y ago
  150k is pretty bad for a senior dev in NYC fyi. Perhaps you have answered your own question. Banks will pay at least 2x more and large tech companies closer to that than what you are offering. Note I'm not talking about truly great developers, merely good senior ones.
  - morgante 12y ago
    I'm not sure I agree, especially when you factor in substantial equity. We have interviewed numerous people from banks and large tech companies and our salaries certainly don't seem out of whack. For reference, $150k is right on target according to AngelList data: https://angel.co/salaries https://angel.co/salaries
    - kmonsen 12y ago
      Maybe the AngelList data is why startups have trouble finding good engineers? There is no good way of finding out what a good developer should get, and that is because the companies (including yours) like it that way. I only have anecdotal data, I don't think many people have more, but I am very sure a decent senior dev can get way more than what you are offering. I think there is more to a job than just the salary, but at least be open about the fact that there are open positions doing similar work in the same city offering significantly more.
    - greenyoda 12y ago
      "especially when you factor in substantial equity" Unless your company ends up being the next Google or Facebook (which is a statistically unlikely outcome for any startup), your "substantial equity" may never be worth any significant amount of money. Living in NYC is expensive, and you can't pay your rent with stock options.
      - schlumpf 12y ago
        To somebody who watched the equity bubble unfold in '99-00, this is what a labor shortage looks like.
    - 12y ago
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up to $150k+. I once got messaged on LinkedIn by a Bloomberg/banking guy looking for me to contract with them in New York at a rate of $144,000/year, and I'm comparatively junior. A properly senior developer, someone with something like 7-10 years of experience in industry, should definitely be making a bunch more than some guy offers me off-the-cuff when trying to recruit on LinkedIn -- especially in an expensive area like NYC!
  - morgante 12y ago
    > I once got messaged on LinkedIn by a Bloomberg/banking guy looking for me to contract with them in New York at a rate of $144,000/year, and I'm comparatively junior. We have successfully hired people from Bloomberg and finance (including competitive compensation). One thing to keep in mind is that contracting is very different from full time. $150k is low for senior contractors but normal for senior developers (annualized, I expect senior developer consultants to be making more than $200k if they're based in NYC).

morgante 12y ago

> (1) Developers should be making more than what they are As a developer, I'd love to agree with this. In fact, I do. But in our experience this isn't directly related to the talent shortage (again, we have never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate). > (2) Why should startups be entitled to cheap labor? I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up to $150k+.

waterlesscloud 12y ago
You've never been unable to make a compelling offer to a candidate you've attracted to apply in the first place. What about those you haven't?
- morgante 12y ago
  You're right that our biggest challenge is in getting people to apply in the first place. What do you think is the highest value of deploying monetary and other resources to make that happen, given that publicly listing salaries is a non-starter?
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    If you want the benefit of offering significantly above market salaries, at some point you've got to let it be known that you're doing that. Secretly paying people a lot of money won't attract new talent.
  - zevets 12y ago
    Does your employer use the lots of startupland hiring phrases, like "we're looking for passionate rockstars who believe in our mission to change the world through payroll software"? A lot of the phrases in vogue right now seem to indicate companies that want employees that work 80 hour weeks and pay entry level salaries. Have you tried "competitive compensation" or some other non-numerical indicator that you guys pay well or phrases that indicate you guys have a professional vs. passionate culture?
    - morgante 12y ago
      I think our job listings are quite fair and free of "startup" phrases. We emphasize the actual problems you'll be working on and try to communicate that we pay professional salaries for professionals. Then again, I wrote them. So you can see for yourself: http://www.cafe.com/careers http://www.cafe.com/careers
      - greenyoda 12y ago
        "I think our job listings are quite fair and free of 'startup' phrases." Just looked at your "Lead Engineer" listing. It says: "We offer a great startup work environment with free beer, snacks, and friendly teammates." That sounds more like a typical startup that expects people to work there for the fun experience than a workplace that wants to attract highly-paid professionals. And the offer of free beer makes it sound like a frat party. Maybe that's a turn-off to women who don't want to work in a place full of drunken guys. Maybe it's a turn-off to guys who want to have a life outside of work. Skip the free beer and make sure your employees have enough free time after work to get a beer outside if they want to.
kmonsen 12y ago
150k is pretty bad for a senior dev in NYC fyi. Perhaps you have answered your own question. Banks will pay at least 2x more and large tech companies closer to that than what you are offering. Note I'm not talking about truly great developers, merely good senior ones.
- morgante 12y ago
  I'm not sure I agree, especially when you factor in substantial equity. We have interviewed numerous people from banks and large tech companies and our salaries certainly don't seem out of whack. For reference, $150k is right on target according to AngelList data: https://angel.co/salaries https://angel.co/salaries
  - kmonsen 12y ago
    Maybe the AngelList data is why startups have trouble finding good engineers? There is no good way of finding out what a good developer should get, and that is because the companies (including yours) like it that way. I only have anecdotal data, I don't think many people have more, but I am very sure a decent senior dev can get way more than what you are offering. I think there is more to a job than just the salary, but at least be open about the fact that there are open positions doing similar work in the same city offering significantly more.
  - greenyoda 12y ago
    "especially when you factor in substantial equity" Unless your company ends up being the next Google or Facebook (which is a statistically unlikely outcome for any startup), your "substantial equity" may never be worth any significant amount of money. Living in NYC is expensive, and you can't pay your rent with stock options.
    - schlumpf 12y ago
      To somebody who watched the equity bubble unfold in '99-00, this is what a labor shortage looks like.
  - 12y ago
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>I don't think they should be. All our senior devs have generous compensation which easily adds up to $150k+. I once got messaged on LinkedIn by a Bloomberg/banking guy looking for me to contract with them in New York at a rate of $144,000/year, and I'm comparatively junior. A properly senior developer, someone with something like 7-10 years of experience in industry, should definitely be making a bunch more than some guy offers me off-the-cuff when trying to recruit on LinkedIn -- especially in an expensive area like NYC!
- morgante 12y ago
  > I once got messaged on LinkedIn by a Bloomberg/banking guy looking for me to contract with them in New York at a rate of $144,000/year, and I'm comparatively junior. We have successfully hired people from Bloomberg and finance (including competitive compensation). One thing to keep in mind is that contracting is very different from full time. $150k is low for senior contractors but normal for senior developers (annualized, I expect senior developer consultants to be making more than $200k if they're based in NYC).