4 ms·

> anyone who cries foul about a shortage of workers Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages a

by sheetjs 12y ago

> anyone who cries foul about a shortage of workers Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside."

sanxiyn 12y ago
On the subject of risk, I found "Capital vs labor: who risks more?" convincing. The author opines labor risks more, and I agree. http://yosefk.com/blog/capital-vs-labor-who-risks-more.html http://yosefk.com/blog/capital-vs-labor-who-risks-more.html
wdewind 12y ago
> Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside." I agree that salaries are an issue, but I can't agree with this attitude which seems so prevalent on hacker news recently. First of all, the downside risk an entrepreneur faces is huge. We like to say we are the type of nation and culture that accepts failure and encourages risk, and compared to other places that may be true. But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. On the other hand, an engineer coming out of a failed startup will have the same trouble finding work they had as they went in. In terms of upside, negotiate a position that makes sense for you. You're the only one responsible for how much of the upside you share.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. That's just about 100% opposite to my experience, both firsthand and by observing others. Why do you state this with such certainty? Keep in mind that there are huge differences from country to country about how failure is perceived. In Germany what you write might by true to some extent, but in NL it wouldn't be and in the US it would be a badge of honour and people would be more than glad to have you.
  - wdewind 12y ago
    True that I don't have any citation, like you only going off my own experience. My own experience in hiring has been that short of consultant positions ex-CEOs don't have specific enough skillsets to be put to work in many places in a company. When I have worked with them they have been unmitigated disasters. I'm curious about your experiences because, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you were pretty successful early on in your career. I'm sure you've had failures, but having a win behind you tends to temper failures quite a bit. Regardless, the entrepreneur will have to either change careers (go back to being a programmer - which is not difficult in this market), or negotiate successfully for much rarer positions than the programmer. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying the concept that there is a risk for entrepreneurs, and more so than their employees (at least the engineers). Edit: And I'm curious what your thoughts on the comment I was replying to are as well.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Well, I've always been a programmer so I guess that's a marketable skill. The only thing that probably stops me from getting a 'day job' is that I'm too expensive and I like my freedom but it's not as if I would have trouble finding a job. Rather the opposite, offers from all over the globe with some regularity. I specialize in work for the financial sector and do the occasional interim management / project rescue job, high pay, very intense and fun to do with both a defined beginning and end. As for the failures, they're too numerous to recount :) Having one 'win' and a string of failures still adds up to a win (for me), but it was a pretty slow road upwards with one stroke of good luck in between somewhere. For the most part it was simply hard work. The first contracting job I landed sustained me for quite a while, you're definitely right in that (and it became a very large success over the longer term but I did not see any revenues from that). CEOs without specific skill-sets are usually not the best CEOs to begin with, that might be where the failure correlation comes in. I don't think I'm the best CEO either (or CTO for that matter), but I know how to spot talent and when to get the hell out the way and I think those are the major skills you should have as a manager at any level (as well as knowing how to keep people motivated). As for the parent comment: I think it's spot on. The worst possible position to be in is early hire in a start-up. You're going to see all of the downsides but only 1% of the upside of being a founder. If you're going to be taking that much risk you might as well be a founder.
unimportant 12y ago
I can't stress this enough. In Germany all kinds of industries have been whining about shortages for ages, but in reality they're all looking for unicorns that work for peanuts in combination with an absolute unwillingness to train anyone (let someone else or big gov foot the bill, if that doesn't work cry for immigration reforms).
- wyclif 12y ago
  In the US, it's popular for Valley companies to complain that they can't hire for what they're willing to pay, but at the same time they are totally unwilling to train—if you're a developer who wants to advance and improve your skillset, well, that is going to be up to you on your nights and weekends. Funny how that works.

by sheetjs 12y ago

sanxiyn 12y ago

On the subject of risk, I found "Capital vs labor: who risks more?" convincing. The author opines labor risks more, and I agree. http://yosefk.com/blog/capital-vs-labor-who-risks-more.html http://yosefk.com/blog/capital-vs-labor-who-risks-more.html

wdewind 12y ago

> Those people generally use the phrase to mean "a shortage of workers willing to accept below-market wages and invest all of their time and energy in a company while bearing the downside risk of a entrepreneur but none of the upside." I agree that salaries are an issue, but I can't agree with this attitude which seems so prevalent on hacker news recently. First of all, the downside risk an entrepreneur faces is huge. We like to say we are the type of nation and culture that accepts failure and encourages risk, and compared to other places that may be true. But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. On the other hand, an engineer coming out of a failed startup will have the same trouble finding work they had as they went in. In terms of upside, negotiate a position that makes sense for you. You're the only one responsible for how much of the upside you share.

jacquesm 12y ago
> But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. That's just about 100% opposite to my experience, both firsthand and by observing others. Why do you state this with such certainty? Keep in mind that there are huge differences from country to country about how failure is perceived. In Germany what you write might by true to some extent, but in NL it wouldn't be and in the US it would be a badge of honour and people would be more than glad to have you.
- wdewind 12y ago
  True that I don't have any citation, like you only going off my own experience. My own experience in hiring has been that short of consultant positions ex-CEOs don't have specific enough skillsets to be put to work in many places in a company. When I have worked with them they have been unmitigated disasters. I'm curious about your experiences because, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you were pretty successful early on in your career. I'm sure you've had failures, but having a win behind you tends to temper failures quite a bit. Regardless, the entrepreneur will have to either change careers (go back to being a programmer - which is not difficult in this market), or negotiate successfully for much rarer positions than the programmer. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying the concept that there is a risk for entrepreneurs, and more so than their employees (at least the engineers). Edit: And I'm curious what your thoughts on the comment I was replying to are as well.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Well, I've always been a programmer so I guess that's a marketable skill. The only thing that probably stops me from getting a 'day job' is that I'm too expensive and I like my freedom but it's not as if I would have trouble finding a job. Rather the opposite, offers from all over the globe with some regularity. I specialize in work for the financial sector and do the occasional interim management / project rescue job, high pay, very intense and fun to do with both a defined beginning and end. As for the failures, they're too numerous to recount :) Having one 'win' and a string of failures still adds up to a win (for me), but it was a pretty slow road upwards with one stroke of good luck in between somewhere. For the most part it was simply hard work. The first contracting job I landed sustained me for quite a while, you're definitely right in that (and it became a very large success over the longer term but I did not see any revenues from that). CEOs without specific skill-sets are usually not the best CEOs to begin with, that might be where the failure correlation comes in. I don't think I'm the best CEO either (or CTO for that matter), but I know how to spot talent and when to get the hell out the way and I think those are the major skills you should have as a manager at any level (as well as knowing how to keep people motivated). As for the parent comment: I think it's spot on. The worst possible position to be in is early hire in a start-up. You're going to see all of the downsides but only 1% of the upside of being a founder. If you're going to be taking that much risk you might as well be a founder.

unimportant 12y ago

I can't stress this enough. In Germany all kinds of industries have been whining about shortages for ages, but in reality they're all looking for unicorns that work for peanuts in combination with an absolute unwillingness to train anyone (let someone else or big gov foot the bill, if that doesn't work cry for immigration reforms).

wyclif 12y ago
In the US, it's popular for Valley companies to complain that they can't hire for what they're willing to pay, but at the same time they are totally unwilling to train—if you're a developer who wants to advance and improve your skillset, well, that is going to be up to you on your nights and weekends. Funny how that works.