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Sex and the Industrial Revolution

54 points by benbreen 12y ago

vain 12y ago
It surprises me how opinion can be written off as fact. Emma Griffin speculates about how social customs come about and just states them as fact. I was looking for citations to references/studies. There are none. At best there are anecdotes. I googled up Emma Griffin, and she seems to be a celebrated historian http://emmagriffin.info/ http://emmagriffin.info/ . I do not know what to make of this otherwise interesting write up. Or is it just science that requires any rigor in what is said?
- shenanigoat 12y ago
  She hints at the fact that the info was gleaned from diaries and other writings from the working class. Well...it isn't explicitly stated that she used these so I guess some assumptions need to be made. I would say, for an article like this with a lay audience in mind, maybe it's not so important that everything is cited as it would be in a research paper or an article in a history journal. "Not only are there the usual problems in uncovering evidence about the lives of the poor and often unlettered men and women who made up the bulk of the population, but sex is also a topic about which all levels of society were generally reticent. Yet, if evidence about the sexual behaviour of ordinary people is hard to find, it certainly exists. Working-class diaries and autobiographies shed a unique and important light on the lives of the poor. While many autobiographical writers steered well clear of revealing anything about their intimate experiences, others found they were unable to write their life history without touching upon matters of a sexual nature. As a result such sources can help us to understand not only the social customs that controlled sexual activity in the pre-industrial era, but also the weakening of these controls during the turbulent years of the Industrial Revolution."
- icegreentea 12y ago
  Uh, a couple things to consider: a) This is an article in a magazine, not a research journal. The standards are inherently different. This is similar to the lower level of 'rigour' demanded out of scientific magazine articles, as opposed to research journals. b) Huge chunks of history consists of interpreting evidence. In so much as interpreting is a matter of opinion, this is pretty much an opinion piece. Historians really don't have any offer a citation to back up their interpretations. Certainly, it helps, but the point is that they offer up evidence (in the form of selections of contemporary journal entries), and then interpret that evidence, and present it to you. You're suppose to accept or reject (or wherever on the spectrum) this interpretation based on your critical faculties and own background knowledge. c) Since we actually do lack 'objective' measurements for huge amounts of things that we really are curious about in the past, all we have are anecdotes. We cannot perform experiments on the past. Archeology is limited. Conclusions drawn from normal historical methods are certainly limited, and heavily influenced by biases, but that's pretty much all we have to work with.
michaelsbradley 12y ago
Whenever I read a piece that is bullish on contraception and the sexual revolution of the 1960s, I become a little disheartened to think how many people today have such a dim view of sex and their own human nature. Sex is about but pleasure, but also so much more. See John Paul II's Theology of the Body: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm This information should be lovingly and shared with young persons, even (and especially) when it challenges us as adults and requires us to grow in maturity and understanding. Also, there are wonderful modern, "open source" and free alternatives to pharmaceutical contraception, barrier methods and surgical sterilization, not to mention chemical and surgical abortion. I would invite readers here to learn about modern NFP and to help spread the word: http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/nfp-basic-information.cfm http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/n...
- Chinjut 12y ago
  That's funny. Whenever I hear from people that are "bearish" on contraception, the sexual revolution, etc., I become a little disheartened to think how many people even today have such a dim view of sex and their own human nature...
- hvs 12y ago
  The "rhythm method" is notoriously ineffective, and relying on the word of a celibate man for an understanding of sex is a bit strange. Also, 90% of what he is explaining assumes you believe in the theology of the Catholic church, which a lot of people don't. Also, I hardly believe that a lot of people have a "dim view of sex," and if they do, it is most likely because they grew up in the Catholic Church. Trust me, I know because I did.
  - michaelsbradley 12y ago
    The Billings Method != "rhythm method". And there are other similar methods that belong to the modern NFP family, grounded in well-researched medical science and backed by clinical trials.
gsibble 12y ago
I disagree with her conclusion that "we should not conclude that they were experiencing some kind of early sexual emancipation". Why shouldn't we? Younger girls were enjoying sex out of wedlock precisely because they could. Why would they have sex and risk raising a child unless it was pleasurable?
FrojoS 12y ago
Very interesting read and full of details and primary sources. If you are not used to ancient British, keep a dictionary handy. Call me naive, but it had not occurred to me before, that marriage ought to be lavish, not because its an important social event but because it ought to be unaffordable expensive for the young and the poor.

54 points by benbreen 12y ago

vain 12y ago

It surprises me how opinion can be written off as fact. Emma Griffin speculates about how social customs come about and just states them as fact. I was looking for citations to references/studies. There are none. At best there are anecdotes. I googled up Emma Griffin, and she seems to be a celebrated historian http://emmagriffin.info/ http://emmagriffin.info/ . I do not know what to make of this otherwise interesting write up. Or is it just science that requires any rigor in what is said?

shenanigoat 12y ago
She hints at the fact that the info was gleaned from diaries and other writings from the working class. Well...it isn't explicitly stated that she used these so I guess some assumptions need to be made. I would say, for an article like this with a lay audience in mind, maybe it's not so important that everything is cited as it would be in a research paper or an article in a history journal. "Not only are there the usual problems in uncovering evidence about the lives of the poor and often unlettered men and women who made up the bulk of the population, but sex is also a topic about which all levels of society were generally reticent. Yet, if evidence about the sexual behaviour of ordinary people is hard to find, it certainly exists. Working-class diaries and autobiographies shed a unique and important light on the lives of the poor. While many autobiographical writers steered well clear of revealing anything about their intimate experiences, others found they were unable to write their life history without touching upon matters of a sexual nature. As a result such sources can help us to understand not only the social customs that controlled sexual activity in the pre-industrial era, but also the weakening of these controls during the turbulent years of the Industrial Revolution."
icegreentea 12y ago
Uh, a couple things to consider: a) This is an article in a magazine, not a research journal. The standards are inherently different. This is similar to the lower level of 'rigour' demanded out of scientific magazine articles, as opposed to research journals. b) Huge chunks of history consists of interpreting evidence. In so much as interpreting is a matter of opinion, this is pretty much an opinion piece. Historians really don't have any offer a citation to back up their interpretations. Certainly, it helps, but the point is that they offer up evidence (in the form of selections of contemporary journal entries), and then interpret that evidence, and present it to you. You're suppose to accept or reject (or wherever on the spectrum) this interpretation based on your critical faculties and own background knowledge. c) Since we actually do lack 'objective' measurements for huge amounts of things that we really are curious about in the past, all we have are anecdotes. We cannot perform experiments on the past. Archeology is limited. Conclusions drawn from normal historical methods are certainly limited, and heavily influenced by biases, but that's pretty much all we have to work with.

michaelsbradley 12y ago

Whenever I read a piece that is bullish on contraception and the sexual revolution of the 1960s, I become a little disheartened to think how many people today have such a dim view of sex and their own human nature. Sex is about but pleasure, but also so much more. See John Paul II's Theology of the Body: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm This information should be lovingly and shared with young persons, even (and especially) when it challenges us as adults and requires us to grow in maturity and understanding. Also, there are wonderful modern, "open source" and free alternatives to pharmaceutical contraception, barrier methods and surgical sterilization, not to mention chemical and surgical abortion. I would invite readers here to learn about modern NFP and to help spread the word: http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/ http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/nfp-basic-information.cfm http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/n...

Chinjut 12y ago
That's funny. Whenever I hear from people that are "bearish" on contraception, the sexual revolution, etc., I become a little disheartened to think how many people even today have such a dim view of sex and their own human nature...
hvs 12y ago
The "rhythm method" is notoriously ineffective, and relying on the word of a celibate man for an understanding of sex is a bit strange. Also, 90% of what he is explaining assumes you believe in the theology of the Catholic church, which a lot of people don't. Also, I hardly believe that a lot of people have a "dim view of sex," and if they do, it is most likely because they grew up in the Catholic Church. Trust me, I know because I did.
- michaelsbradley 12y ago
  The Billings Method != "rhythm method". And there are other similar methods that belong to the modern NFP family, grounded in well-researched medical science and backed by clinical trials.

gsibble 12y ago

I disagree with her conclusion that "we should not conclude that they were experiencing some kind of early sexual emancipation". Why shouldn't we? Younger girls were enjoying sex out of wedlock precisely because they could. Why would they have sex and risk raising a child unless it was pleasurable?

FrojoS 12y ago

Very interesting read and full of details and primary sources. If you are not used to ancient British, keep a dictionary handy. Call me naive, but it had not occurred to me before, that marriage ought to be lavish, not because its an important social event but because it ought to be unaffordable expensive for the young and the poor.