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Yeah, I've got a similar impression. The only 2 things I care about are 1) productivity (time to finish a task) 2) how pleasurable is it to use a language. And

Yeah, I've got a similar impression. The only 2 things I care about are 1) productivity (time to finish a task) 2) how pleasurable is it to use a language. And I just don't find Haskell (or Lisp) to be as productive as many would suggest, even if you adjust for matureness of the ecosystem. (Note: I have a moderate experience with Lisp, very little experience with Haskell and these days mostly program in Java, Julia and Python.)

jbeja 12y ago
"I have a moderate experience with Lisp, very little experience with Haskell and these days mostly program in Java, Julia and Python" I despise that people give their 2 cents for something they haven't experienced much.
- mikegioia 12y ago
  You mean like everyone in this thread who has never written PHP but feels the need to bash it?
- RivieraKid 12y ago
  Why? You assume that little experience with Haskell is not enough to make conclusions about its productivity. I disagree with this assumption, I think you can sometimes make a moderately confident conclusions from little experience. And I understand I can be wrong of course.
  - codygman 12y ago
    Can you list a few reasons you think Haskell isn't pragmatic?
    - jbeja 12y ago
      She can't, given how little experience she have with the language.
      - RivieraKid 12y ago
        It's "he".
        jbeja 12y ago
        Use she to express it as person when I don't know the gender.
        RivieraKid 12y ago
        Use "s/he" or "they", it's quite weird to address others with "she" in a 95%+ male community.
        ibotty 12y ago
        even more when disagreeing.
        coldtea 12y ago
        Better use statistics. Most of the people on HN are male (including gay males).
imanaccount247 12y ago
>I just don't find Haskell ... to be as productive as many would suggest >I have ... very little experience with Haskell So, how would you know?
- RivieraKid 12y ago
  I don't know with 100% certainity, but it's a moderately confident conclusion from my little experience.
  - Ixiaus 12y ago
    It's an incorrect conclusion that requires further education and experience before you can be sure your subjective experience of productivity truly is that poor.
    - hnriot 12y ago
      please, this is getting old. Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are instead of just getting on with developing applications that actually do useful things efficiently.
      - codygman 12y ago
        I hope you are trolling. Most Haskeller's value getting things done over being clever and actually actively avoid being clever. In your other comment you point out that many of PHP detractors have not used it or have very little experience. Do you have experience using haskell? If not, you are being hypocritical. Please stop.
      - imanaccount247 12y ago
        >Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are Yes, that's what banks are most known for. Showing off how clever they are and not doing anything useful. Facebook and google certainly fit that profile as well right?
  - 12y ago
akurilin 12y ago
I wrote the core of our system in Clojure a couple of years ago, which is pretty high in productivity and actually quite pleasant to work with. Unfortunately as the scale goes up (hundreds of web application routes, sharing code among multiple projects etc) it doesn't feel nearly as nice anymore, and having static typing turns out to be pretty handy. Haskell to me felt exactly like what you described: I could get stuff done fast because of how few head-scratchers I'd experience. This is mostly due to type mismatches, and how much more well thought our my design needed to be upfront. I also really enjoyed the language because I could express fairly complex thoughts in a very succinct, and yet very readable fashion, mostly thanks to types being explicit and enforced at compile time. Code reuse and sharing across multiple applications is also a breeze, which is absolutely key once you get past the "single Rails app" stage and you start getting into two digits worth of tools, services and applications.
- RivieraKid 12y ago
  Oh ok, I can be wrong about Haskell. BTW, I really like Ceylon, it's very statically safe (more than Haskell I'd say) and very pragmatic (unlike Haskell IMHO, it doesn't seem to focus on maximizing productivity).
  - jimmyhmiller 12y ago
    Ceylon looks interesting. Mind pointing me to some features you think make it more statically safe than haskell?
    - RivieraKid 12y ago
      I don't know if these are considered static safety features but: * Statically safe metaprogramming. * Well designed access rights (private, public). I also really like the type system, very well designed.
  - Ixiaus 12y ago
    I think the only languages that are "statically safer" than Haskell are the theorem provers... (agda and coq come to mind) Disclaimer: I do not have enough PL type theory under my belt to confidently make this argument.

jbeja 12y ago

"I have a moderate experience with Lisp, very little experience with Haskell and these days mostly program in Java, Julia and Python" I despise that people give their 2 cents for something they haven't experienced much.

mikegioia 12y ago
You mean like everyone in this thread who has never written PHP but feels the need to bash it?
RivieraKid 12y ago
Why? You assume that little experience with Haskell is not enough to make conclusions about its productivity. I disagree with this assumption, I think you can sometimes make a moderately confident conclusions from little experience. And I understand I can be wrong of course.
- codygman 12y ago
  Can you list a few reasons you think Haskell isn't pragmatic?
  - jbeja 12y ago
    She can't, given how little experience she have with the language.
    - RivieraKid 12y ago
      It's "he".
      - jbeja 12y ago
        Use she to express it as person when I don't know the gender.
        RivieraKid 12y ago
        Use "s/he" or "they", it's quite weird to address others with "she" in a 95%+ male community.
        ibotty 12y ago
        even more when disagreeing.
        coldtea 12y ago
        Better use statistics. Most of the people on HN are male (including gay males).

imanaccount247 12y ago

>I just don't find Haskell ... to be as productive as many would suggest >I have ... very little experience with Haskell So, how would you know?

RivieraKid 12y ago
I don't know with 100% certainity, but it's a moderately confident conclusion from my little experience.
- Ixiaus 12y ago
  It's an incorrect conclusion that requires further education and experience before you can be sure your subjective experience of productivity truly is that poor.
  - hnriot 12y ago
    please, this is getting old. Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are instead of just getting on with developing applications that actually do useful things efficiently.
    - codygman 12y ago
      I hope you are trolling. Most Haskeller's value getting things done over being clever and actually actively avoid being clever. In your other comment you point out that many of PHP detractors have not used it or have very little experience. Do you have experience using haskell? If not, you are being hypocritical. Please stop.
    - imanaccount247 12y ago
      >Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are Yes, that's what banks are most known for. Showing off how clever they are and not doing anything useful. Facebook and google certainly fit that profile as well right?
- 12y ago

akurilin 12y ago

I wrote the core of our system in Clojure a couple of years ago, which is pretty high in productivity and actually quite pleasant to work with. Unfortunately as the scale goes up (hundreds of web application routes, sharing code among multiple projects etc) it doesn't feel nearly as nice anymore, and having static typing turns out to be pretty handy. Haskell to me felt exactly like what you described: I could get stuff done fast because of how few head-scratchers I'd experience. This is mostly due to type mismatches, and how much more well thought our my design needed to be upfront. I also really enjoyed the language because I could express fairly complex thoughts in a very succinct, and yet very readable fashion, mostly thanks to types being explicit and enforced at compile time. Code reuse and sharing across multiple applications is also a breeze, which is absolutely key once you get past the "single Rails app" stage and you start getting into two digits worth of tools, services and applications.

RivieraKid 12y ago
Oh ok, I can be wrong about Haskell. BTW, I really like Ceylon, it's very statically safe (more than Haskell I'd say) and very pragmatic (unlike Haskell IMHO, it doesn't seem to focus on maximizing productivity).
- jimmyhmiller 12y ago
  Ceylon looks interesting. Mind pointing me to some features you think make it more statically safe than haskell?
  - RivieraKid 12y ago
    I don't know if these are considered static safety features but: * Statically safe metaprogramming. * Well designed access rights (private, public). I also really like the type system, very well designed.
- Ixiaus 12y ago
  I think the only languages that are "statically safer" than Haskell are the theorem provers... (agda and coq come to mind) Disclaimer: I do not have enough PL type theory under my belt to confidently make this argument.