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> Facebook uses PHP This is the common rebuttal of PHP jokes - but pointing to a sole outlier is rarely a solid defense. Especially when they have created Hack

> Facebook uses PHP This is the common rebuttal of PHP jokes - but pointing to a sole outlier is rarely a solid defense. Especially when they have created Hack[1] and HHVM[2]. So it's not entirely accurate to say they "use PHP." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(programming_language) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_Virtual_Machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_Virtual_Machine

raverbashing 12y ago
Sure, they created those tools. But they grew on PHP. Those tools came to be after "a lot of time" And of course they're not the only site that uses PHP (see all the Wordpress installations, etc)
aikah 12y ago
HHVM language is PHP,Hack is a spinoff of PHP. So yeah,they basically use PHP. HHVM is a different implementation,while Hack is a superset. Now why,with the tons of money they have,they chosed to stick with it,I dont know. But it's 100% accurate to say they have some PHP code powering their website. But I bet they have as much java code deployed,and next to none haskell.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  > Hack is a spinoff of PHP. So yeah,they basically use PHP. That's like saying applications written in C++ are "basically C" or Groovy is "basically Java."
krapp 12y ago
Facebook choosing to improve upon PHP is still, arguably, a (weak) argument for PHP as a language which is, at least, worth improving upon. Given their money and resources, they could have chosen to abandon it entirely, but they didn't. Maybe a more accurate form of this argument would be "Facebook still doesn't entirely hate PHP." And even so, there are obviously plenty of sites, and even startups, using PHP, but facebook seems to be the goto for PHP advocacy in sort of the same way that a certain ranty blog post is for its detractors, neither of which really requires much effort to employ, or counter.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  > Facebook choosing to improve upon PHP is still, arguably, a (weak) argument for PHP as a language which is, at least, worth improving upon. Or you can look at it another way: Facebook regretted their decision and PHP potentially made the switch to a different platform so hard that they were forced to improve the language, rather than leave. Don't forget that companies need to be able to justify the cost of moving from one platform to another. When you're employing people whose skillset is potentially limited, that's not always possible.
  - krapp 12y ago
    That's possible, although i'd expect a company with Facebook's resources to be able to justify a move more easily than others, if PHP turned out to be a bad enough decision to really matter. It's still one of the names practically anyone would want on their resume, so they wouldn't exactly be unable to find developers in any language they chose.
    - scrollaway 12y ago
      You're severely underestimating how much lock-in there is to a platform once you choose it for a product and your entire company is built around that one product. The amount of effort needed to rewrite Facebook is insane. To rebuild the entire site, migrate the data, ensure everything is seamless to the users, fire all the now-useless employees and replace the workforce (with all its own re-training costs)... A company like Google can gradually phase out languages they use in favour of others because they can prototype things in new languages in other products they own (Think Dart and Go). A one-website shop just does not have that option.
      - krapp 12y ago
        Fair enough. I've never worked for a company that actually decided to switch, much less one close to the size of Facebook. My assumption was just assumption.
coldtea 12y ago
>This is the common rebuttal of PHP jokes - but pointing to a sole outlier is rarely a solid defense. Sole outlier? Hardly. Half of the web is powered by PHP, including tons of websites with huge traffic and usage. >Especially when they have created Hack[1] and HHVM[2]. So it's not entirely accurate to say they "use PHP." Hack and HHVM do not show some inherent PHP issue that something like Ruby or Python would not have. Hack is mostly an attempt to add type checking/hinting to PHP. The lack of type checking would be the same if they used Python or Ruby or Node+JS or whatever. And HHVM is an attempt at a speedup, to work at Facebook like economies of scale. Considering that plain PHP is on par speedwise with Ruby and Python, that's again not something that would be saved using those other languages. Which is why Google tried to do Unladded Swallow (for Python), Dropbox does their own thing, RoR companies invest hard on speeding up Ruby/Rails, etc. TL;DR: Hack and HHVM may be proofs of some lack in PHP for Facebook uses, but are not proofs of PHP lacking things compared to other similar languages like Python and Ruby.
- yawboakye 12y ago
  > Half of the web is powered by PHP, including tons of websites with huge traffic and usage. What powers the web: web servers or web sites/applications? If it's web servers then your claim that half of the web is powered by PHP is false because I'm—and I'm going to be honest here—yet to see/use a web server written in PHP.
  - cstrahan 12y ago
    I don't think that's a fair interpretation of what was meant by that quote. I think the point was that PHP has been used to great effect, regardless of what shortcoming it may have.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Obviously web sites/applications. Web servers would just server static sets of pages without some means to run dynamic code.
    - yawboakye 12y ago
donatj 12y ago
Lol, Wikipedia which you linked to is PHP. Roughly half the web runs on Wordpress for crying out loud.
- hueving 12y ago
  My town is full of meth addicts, it must be okay!
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - aikah 12y ago
    they are obviously not the majority of the people living in your town.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  I admitted in another comment[1] that I shouldn't have said sole outlier. But I find it surprising you're defending PHP if you feel popularity of a language is determined primarily by how well designed it is, as by that logic C and Java are way better than PHP.[2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8803088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8803088 [2] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....

raverbashing 12y ago

Sure, they created those tools. But they grew on PHP. Those tools came to be after "a lot of time" And of course they're not the only site that uses PHP (see all the Wordpress installations, etc)

aikah 12y ago

HHVM language is PHP,Hack is a spinoff of PHP. So yeah,they basically use PHP. HHVM is a different implementation,while Hack is a superset. Now why,with the tons of money they have,they chosed to stick with it,I dont know. But it's 100% accurate to say they have some PHP code powering their website. But I bet they have as much java code deployed,and next to none haskell.

frostmatthew 12y ago
> Hack is a spinoff of PHP. So yeah,they basically use PHP. That's like saying applications written in C++ are "basically C" or Groovy is "basically Java."

krapp 12y ago

Facebook choosing to improve upon PHP is still, arguably, a (weak) argument for PHP as a language which is, at least, worth improving upon. Given their money and resources, they could have chosen to abandon it entirely, but they didn't. Maybe a more accurate form of this argument would be "Facebook still doesn't entirely hate PHP." And even so, there are obviously plenty of sites, and even startups, using PHP, but facebook seems to be the goto for PHP advocacy in sort of the same way that a certain ranty blog post is for its detractors, neither of which really requires much effort to employ, or counter.

scrollaway 12y ago
> Facebook choosing to improve upon PHP is still, arguably, a (weak) argument for PHP as a language which is, at least, worth improving upon. Or you can look at it another way: Facebook regretted their decision and PHP potentially made the switch to a different platform so hard that they were forced to improve the language, rather than leave. Don't forget that companies need to be able to justify the cost of moving from one platform to another. When you're employing people whose skillset is potentially limited, that's not always possible.
- krapp 12y ago
  That's possible, although i'd expect a company with Facebook's resources to be able to justify a move more easily than others, if PHP turned out to be a bad enough decision to really matter. It's still one of the names practically anyone would want on their resume, so they wouldn't exactly be unable to find developers in any language they chose.
  - scrollaway 12y ago
    You're severely underestimating how much lock-in there is to a platform once you choose it for a product and your entire company is built around that one product. The amount of effort needed to rewrite Facebook is insane. To rebuild the entire site, migrate the data, ensure everything is seamless to the users, fire all the now-useless employees and replace the workforce (with all its own re-training costs)... A company like Google can gradually phase out languages they use in favour of others because they can prototype things in new languages in other products they own (Think Dart and Go). A one-website shop just does not have that option.
    - krapp 12y ago
      Fair enough. I've never worked for a company that actually decided to switch, much less one close to the size of Facebook. My assumption was just assumption.

coldtea 12y ago

>This is the common rebuttal of PHP jokes - but pointing to a sole outlier is rarely a solid defense. Sole outlier? Hardly. Half of the web is powered by PHP, including tons of websites with huge traffic and usage. >Especially when they have created Hack[1] and HHVM[2]. So it's not entirely accurate to say they "use PHP." Hack and HHVM do not show some inherent PHP issue that something like Ruby or Python would not have. Hack is mostly an attempt to add type checking/hinting to PHP. The lack of type checking would be the same if they used Python or Ruby or Node+JS or whatever. And HHVM is an attempt at a speedup, to work at Facebook like economies of scale. Considering that plain PHP is on par speedwise with Ruby and Python, that's again not something that would be saved using those other languages. Which is why Google tried to do Unladded Swallow (for Python), Dropbox does their own thing, RoR companies invest hard on speeding up Ruby/Rails, etc. TL;DR: Hack and HHVM may be proofs of some lack in PHP for Facebook uses, but are not proofs of PHP lacking things compared to other similar languages like Python and Ruby.

yawboakye 12y ago
> Half of the web is powered by PHP, including tons of websites with huge traffic and usage. What powers the web: web servers or web sites/applications? If it's web servers then your claim that half of the web is powered by PHP is false because I'm—and I'm going to be honest here—yet to see/use a web server written in PHP.
- cstrahan 12y ago
  I don't think that's a fair interpretation of what was meant by that quote. I think the point was that PHP has been used to great effect, regardless of what shortcoming it may have.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Obviously web sites/applications. Web servers would just server static sets of pages without some means to run dynamic code.
  - yawboakye 12y ago

donatj 12y ago

Lol, Wikipedia which you linked to is PHP. Roughly half the web runs on Wordpress for crying out loud.

hueving 12y ago
My town is full of meth addicts, it must be okay!
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- aikah 12y ago
  they are obviously not the majority of the people living in your town.
frostmatthew 12y ago
I admitted in another comment[1] that I shouldn't have said sole outlier. But I find it surprising you're defending PHP if you feel popularity of a language is determined primarily by how well designed it is, as by that logic C and Java are way better than PHP.[2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8803088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8803088 [2] http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....